'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi • Hacker News Board

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#101

Post by jimktrains2 » Wed, May 02, 2018, 9:35 PM UTC

walrus01 wrote: post #91

jimktrains2 wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Google did not fail at starting an ISP. They decided that the ROI for doing individual residential home FTTH was not worth it, considering the cost per house passed. ~Kind of sounds like it failed.~ Apparently Google Fiber is starting to expand again. I still think it serves as a good case against why the current climate makes it near-impossible for a "plucky upstart [with vc funding]" to start a large, traditional…

> The issue is that people are fed up with the large ISPs and that the large ISPs have made it all-but-impossible to start an ISP. that's the thing, they haven't. Not in the service territory this new nonprofit is operating in. There's something like 14 different ISPs which overlap service area with them in their part of New York City, none of which are big nationwide Comcast or Centurylink sized entities. What they'…

NYC, and potentially a few other urban areas, have the capability to run fiber easily.

I'm also just not sure why you're acting like this. You're being simply dismissive of the project. There are many successful meshnets.

You've yet to give a specific complaint about this project and have simply ranted about how they're just small, underfunded, and not a real ISP without ever actually substantiating any of that or specifically what they're doing wrong.

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#102

Post by gonehome » Wed, May 02, 2018, 9:35 PM UTC

Rjevski wrote: post #97

gonehome wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it encrypted? https://nycmesh.net/faq/#secure That seems to suggest otherwise? Unless I don’t understand what network traffic within the mesh means.

Seems like anyone with access to the mesh has the keys to decrypt anyone's traffic, but it's still encrypted from an outsider's point of view.

Yes, but anyone can become an insider (and an attacker would). Probably an okay tradeoff given decentralization of network access and maybe could be made better if internal traffic was encrypted somehow, but does seem higher risk.

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#103

Post by jimktrains2 » Wed, May 02, 2018, 9:37 PM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #95

jimktrains2 wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Mesh networks are too complicated to be reliable over a long term I mean, this isn't true. I'm not even sure to begin. Perhaps specific points instead of nebulous nonsense would help us better understand you.

Sure. The protocols, the routing, the interference, backend and gear maintenance, regulatory requirements, expense and complexity of multiple WAN links, and ad hoc setup of said links in an uneven physical environment. To say nothing of managing uneven customer load. Running fiber is expensive but less complicated and less error prone. And unless I missed something, there aren't any initiatives by big companies (that…

> Sure. The protocols, the routing, the interference, backend and gear maintenance, regulatory requirements, expense and complexity of multiple WAN links, and ad hoc setup of said links in an uneven physical environment. To say nothing of managing uneven customer load.

I think you have an overly narrow view of what meshnets can be.

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#104

Post by Roritharr » Wed, May 02, 2018, 9:38 PM UTC

walrus01 wrote: post #46

Actual ISP network engineer here: I'm sure these people are having fun and all, but it's insignificant in the larger scheme of things. (correction to original post: I did not at first see an ASN for them, or announcements of their own IP space. They have an ASN and announce two /24s, and peer at one physical location in metro NYC). Real five nines network infrastructure takes significant capital investment. This part…

The whole 5 nines aspect is interesting. I wonder why there isn't more cheaper more unreliable service available for customers built on cheaper hardware using less reliable infrastructure. Laser Links to cross distances etc.

I imagine consumers would be fine with 95% uptime of a gigabit connection compared to 99,99999% uptime of 16mbit.

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#105

Post by danShumway » Wed, May 02, 2018, 9:43 PM UTC

walrus01 wrote: post #83

jimktrains2 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Actual ISP network engineer her So then you must intimately understand the depth of the lies and anti-consumer business practices that spur such networks. > Real five nines network infrastructure takes significant capital investment. 5-9s is 5 minutes of downtime a year. I've never had a commercial, let alone residential ISP hit that mark. > Actual, reliable internet costs real money, both in the salaries of people…

Google did not fail at starting an ISP. They decided that the ROI for doing individual residential home FTTH was not worth it, considering the cost per house passed. Then they went and bought Webpass, which has a totally different condo/apartment based business model, which has been wildly successful. Starting a small ISP based out of extreme dissatisfaction with huge, evil incumbents is something that I encourage an…

> At NYC salaries? In a greenfield scenario, I could easily spend $900,000 a year in just payroll and benefits

I kind of don't understand what you're getting at here. They're a nonprofit. The majority of their work is coming from volunteers. They aren't paying New York salaries.

This is like going to Linus and saying "You can't possibly expect Linux to be sustainable - do you have any idea how much money Microsoft pays its developers?"

Nonprofit/open models aren't less work than commercial ventures; the difference is that people and companies donate their time/money because they want the project to succeed. If they end up with a competitive enough product, then businesses will start sponsoring more development, because it'll be a cheap alternative to dealing with Comcast.

At that point, large businesses operating in the city will pay/sponsor New York salaries to maintain the parts of the project they find useful. Exactly like every other Open Source or community run project on the planet.

I have plenty of doubts about volunteer mesh networks, but I'm not so skeptical to say they literally can't work. I think you're looking at one particular model of the market and assuming that anything deviating from that model is broken, rather than just targeting different segments or trying a different strategy or even just accomplishing different goals.

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#106

Post by quiet_obrserver » Wed, May 02, 2018, 9:44 PM UTC

nycmesh wrote: post #54

walrus01 wrote: post #46

Actual ISP network engineer here: I'm sure these people are having fun and all, but it's insignificant in the larger scheme of things. (correction to original post: I did not at first see an ASN for them, or announcements of their own IP space. They have an ASN and announce two /24s, and peer at one physical location in metro NYC). Real five nines network infrastructure takes significant capital investment. This part…

Our ASN is AS395853. Our peering info is here- https://nycmesh.net/peering/ We have v4 and v6 space. Our uptime when connecting to supernode1 is significantly better than Time Warner Cable as many of our members have reported. We are already established. This is something we have already done! It isn't impossible. Our IXP is DE-CIX, the worlds biggest IXP. We are currently in one data-center/IXP and talking to a few…

So what's the Wifi NAME in Manhattan?

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#107

Post by zug_zug » Wed, May 02, 2018, 9:48 PM UTC

I really don't understand the HN reaction here. Why all the presumed negativity? This is tech, the best encyclopedia in the world is built on volunteer work and donations. A genius builds the de-facto version control system on his own in 3 months for fun. 2 guys in a garage build revolutionize search.

Certainly there are logistical differences between these things, but I don't understand why one would assert with confidence that such a project (that already seems to be working) couldn't work.

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#108

Post by hop » Wed, May 02, 2018, 9:49 PM UTC

Nice. Our 200+ unit condo building in Portland just got gigabit internet via line of sight radio on the roof from another building with fiber.

This is a trend that will definitely take off and removes the huge barriers of entry that laying cable requires. 1ms latency too.

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#109

Post by tvchurch » Wed, May 02, 2018, 9:51 PM UTC

hop wrote: post #108

Nice. Our 200+ unit condo building in Portland just got gigabit internet via line of sight radio on the roof from another building with fiber. This is a trend that will definitely take off and removes the huge barriers of entry that laying cable requires. 1ms latency too.

I've got to know more about this. Who set it up? Local start up? Bored engineers?

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#110

Post by pdkl95 » Wed, May 02, 2018, 9:56 PM UTC

walrus01 wrote: post #83

jimktrains2 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Actual ISP network engineer her So then you must intimately understand the depth of the lies and anti-consumer business practices that spur such networks. > Real five nines network infrastructure takes significant capital investment. 5-9s is 5 minutes of downtime a year. I've never had a commercial, let alone residential ISP hit that mark. > Actual, reliable internet costs real money, both in the salaries of people…

Google did not fail at starting an ISP. They decided that the ROI for doing individual residential home FTTH was not worth it, considering the cost per house passed. Then they went and bought Webpass, which has a totally different condo/apartment based business model, which has been wildly successful. Starting a small ISP based out of extreme dissatisfaction with huge, evil incumbents is something that I encourage an…

> they should treat it like a serious business and not a nonprofit.

A non-profit organization can be as "serious" as any for-profit business. The only difference is the non-profit might, for example, be required by their charter to re-invest income back into the business instead of paying it out as profit to the owners/shareholders/etc.

The level of "seriousness" of an organization should be determined by their business plan (is it profitable? And sustainable?), not their profit motive or financial footprint.

> if they're going to invest significant amounts of their personal time/engineering resources

First, it's their time and resources to spend as they wish.

Additionally, a suggestion I've heard is that pursuing anything that requires a serious investment of your time and resources (e.g. a job/internship, school, non-paid opportunities for "exposure") is worth pursuing if and only if it at lest two of these are true: [pays well/profitable, will improve future opportunities, you really enjoy it]. (If you love doing something and you're learning a lot or gaining experience that looks great on a CV, it can be worth a serious pay cut)

> build a network that actually does meet five nines through sufficient diversity in topology and routing

That is a good goal, but it isn't strictly necessary at first. Limit growth to what is possible at the time, and grow into a larger organization if it's successful.