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'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

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Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#31

Post by nycmesh »

jeffreyrogers wrote: post #20
jessaustin wrote: post #13

The group also knows there will be growing pains as they challenge the status quo and that it's only a matter of time before the big ISPs take notice, which could bring new challenges. I'd like to imagine this would be competition on price and service. Sadly, that won't be the case. They can expect everything from spurious CALEA requirements to rooftop lease shenanigans to unwarranted radio interference claims. Event…

I don't think mesh makes sense from an economics perspective. The number of edges scales O(n^2), where n is the number of people in the network. That's not very efficient. Even if you think wireless internet is feasible in dense urban areas (I think this is still an open question) it seems like a star topology connected by wireless backhaul to fiber makes more sense. This scales O(n).

That's why we build a hybrid network with p2p and p2mp backhaul.

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#32

Post by mholt »

jeffreyrogers wrote: post #24
stcredzero wrote: post #6

Is there an inexpensive point to point technology that isn't hampered by rain?

2.4 and 5 GHz aren't too affected by rain fade. And they're cheap.

I thought wifi couldn't go through water? (Or is rain just so sparse/diluted that it doesn't really affect it?)

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#33

Post by gonehome »

jessaustin wrote: post #13

The group also knows there will be growing pains as they challenge the status quo and that it's only a matter of time before the big ISPs take notice, which could bring new challenges. I'd like to imagine this would be competition on price and service. Sadly, that won't be the case. They can expect everything from spurious CALEA requirements to rooftop lease shenanigans to unwarranted radio interference claims. Event…

Aren't mesh networks higher risk for security? My initial reaction is that while ISPs collect a lot of information about you a mesh network allows an unknown amount of hostile actors to collect information (unless it's set up like Tor, but that has issues too).

At least with the standard ISP model there is some accountability and privacy rules could be implemented/enforced.

Edit: I think I might have been misunderstanding what mesh network was referring to - this looks like a wireless access point?

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#34

Post by alexandercrohde »

gonehome wrote: post #33
jessaustin wrote: post #13

The group also knows there will be growing pains as they challenge the status quo and that it's only a matter of time before the big ISPs take notice, which could bring new challenges. I'd like to imagine this would be competition on price and service. Sadly, that won't be the case. They can expect everything from spurious CALEA requirements to rooftop lease shenanigans to unwarranted radio interference claims. Event…

Aren't mesh networks higher risk for security? My initial reaction is that while ISPs collect a lot of information about you a mesh network allows an unknown amount of hostile actors to collect information (unless it's set up like Tor, but that has issues too). At least with the standard ISP model there is some accountability and privacy rules could be implemented/enforced. Edit: I think I might have been misundersta…

Well, the content of your requests will be encrypted, that's what SSL is for.

Also, individuals who are concerned about this would be free to purchase a direct line via an ISP.

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#35

Post by jeffreyrogers »

mholt wrote: post #32
jeffreyrogers wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2.4 and 5 GHz aren't too affected by rain fade. And they're cheap.

I thought wifi couldn't go through water? (Or is rain just so sparse/diluted that it doesn't really affect it?)

I'm not sure about water, but rain doesn't have much effect at those frequencies. At higher frequencies (e.g. 24GHz) rain can make the link useless.

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#36

Post by inetsee »

Can anyone comment on the utility of mesh networks in rural areas, where the big ISPs say "Sorry, not interested", and the distances between potential nodes is high? I have read articles in the past about hardware hackers setting up systems to broadcast WiFi signals for exceptional distances. Could a system of mesh networks provide rural America (or other countries) with low cost / high speed internet service?

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#37

Post by notyourday »

isostatic wrote: post #16
notyourday wrote: post #7

I'm in NYC. I know a few people who played with it. It barely works. I'm all for this kind of tech solutions, but for crying out loud pretending that this is a replacement for ISPs in NYC really discredits techies.

Why doesn't a startup run their own fibre? Are building owners that protective? Actually scratch that, I tried getting a 1 gig cross manhattan link. Cost more than 1g to London.

It depends on the location. If you are talking about downtown Manhattan you can get dark fiber between any major buildings for about $5k/mo. If you are not in a mojor building then Zayo would do it for about $20k build out worst case scenario + same $5k/mo, since Zayo touches a boatload of manholes. There was also Metro Optical but I dont know how large is their footprint. They are quite creative.

But in general, go to a decent building and order Cogent. That gets your building on the net. Cogent eats fiber extension charges left and right. Plus you actually get 1Gbit/sec for $500/mo. Now you take that 1Gbit/sec and wire to neighboring buildings by running ethernet or standard yellow fiber. That's how ghetto ISPs get stuff done. It was done for years because it works. There's incentive for those who own building to form a community ISP or provide an access to a community ISP because those that own builds want the same product and they know they can share some of the costs.

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#38

Post by notyourday »

cimmanom wrote: post #22
isostatic wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why doesn't a startup run their own fibre? Are building owners that protective? Actually scratch that, I tried getting a 1 gig cross manhattan link. Cost more than 1g to London.

Building owners? Before you get anywhere near the buildings, you have to dig up the streets to run cabling around the city. Any idea how much that costs?

That's what you outsource to the latest incarnation of Metromedia Fiber Network - Zayo.

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#39

Post by yazr »

jlgaddis wrote: post #17
lbotos wrote: post #12

Who's responsible when someone torrents copyrighted material through that Internet exchange point? "NYC Mesh will comply with all federal laws in the countries it operates, however, as policy, no data is collected and therefore no data exists to provide requestors." This is cute, but if you aren't hunting down people abusing the mesh, the whole connection to the internet will go away for a ToS violation.

I've worked for an ISP for about six and a half years. In that time, I have received I-don't-know-how-many e-mails about people torrenting and so on. I've had one conversation with a Special Agent from DHS investigating credit card fraud. Over this same period, I have given out a customer's identifying information zero times (if more than 24 hours have passed, there is a very small chance that I am able to identify t…

> if more than 24 hours have passed, there is a very > small chance that I am able to identify the customer

Hmm ??? Could u please explain.

I always assumed that all ISPs will store all DHCP (PPPoE? PPTP? IANANE) allocations by IP & time.

Re: 'Anti-authority' tech rebels take on ISPs, connect NYC with cheap Wi-Fi

#40

Post by Rjevski »

gonehome wrote: post #33
jessaustin wrote: post #13

The group also knows there will be growing pains as they challenge the status quo and that it's only a matter of time before the big ISPs take notice, which could bring new challenges. I'd like to imagine this would be competition on price and service. Sadly, that won't be the case. They can expect everything from spurious CALEA requirements to rooftop lease shenanigans to unwarranted radio interference claims. Event…

Aren't mesh networks higher risk for security? My initial reaction is that while ISPs collect a lot of information about you a mesh network allows an unknown amount of hostile actors to collect information (unless it's set up like Tor, but that has issues too). At least with the standard ISP model there is some accountability and privacy rules could be implemented/enforced. Edit: I think I might have been misundersta…

The radio link is still encrypted so an attacker won’t get much out of it. In fact, it’s a lot easier to tap a cable, DSL or fiber line (which operate without any encryption unless you put IPSec on top manually) than a mesh link which would be using WPA2 Enterprise with perfect forward secrecy.
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