Live data from Hacker News

Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

economist.com

301–310 of 556 posts

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#301
post #6

When a person gets a life threatening disease they ought not worry about whether or not their treatment will leave their family in penury. This is especially so in a nation as wealthy as the U.S. The American healthcare system is immoral and I hope it drastically changes. Americans need to change their underlying notions of what it means to be a society. An author was once made fun of for suggesting that it takes a v…

> Americans need to change their underlying notions of what it means to be a society.

We want it (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/health/62-percent-u-s-want-fede...)... Our politicians just aren't doing it.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#302

In these kinds of discussions I like to promote this interesting TEDx talk: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9UmdY0E8hU "Where in the world is it easiest to get rich?" Spoiler: the talk shows that statistically the Nordic countries lead the world in millionaires and billionaires / capita, and in rags-to-riches. The talker offers the opinion that this is because its of the strong social safety net, education and healt…

Or maybe it's the very high resource/population ratio?

The petroleum sector accounts for 40% of Norway's exports.

Fishing is 10% (!) of Norwegian exports.

Both of these things have an incredibly high extraction efficiency in the modern era. It would be nice to believe it's the social safety net, but I don't think that hypothesis is backed up with much evidence. The much more obvious reason is staring Scandinavia in the face. I'm intrigued to see how Norway does when the rest of the world stops using petroleum and goes vegan.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#303
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My position is to take care of that person, like weve been taken care of visiting while other countries, but trying to avoid the illegal/undocumented immigrant strawman for clarity.

Okay, but what about people in other countries? Why don't we have an obligation to help them, to?

We do, if we can. We are not obligated to try impossible things, like caring for everyone in the world.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#304
post #209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like throw-away statements like this almost come out of a different era, like the platform Reagan ran on, "government isn't the solution, it's the problem" or whatever. They're claims that are so simply phrased, people can repeat them without thinking critically about them, but if you do, and start unpacking them, the claims are either wholly unsupported, or unknowable. "Taxes == get fleeced" ... no. Or, at le…

> "Taxes == get fleeced" ... no. Or, at least, not as a matter of course. Maybe some taxes are bad, or unfair, but we can judge each tax on its merits. Sure. I pay private healthcare and i also pay a medicare tax. Im already getting fleeced for a service I don't use. > "Government program provides worse services" ... no. Or, at least, not as a matter of course. Maybe some things the private sector does better? But a…

> Government is just unable to provide something more efficiently than the private market

Do you have a peer reviewed citation for that?

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how you can define the state taking money from the wealthy to buy healthcare for the poor as violently coercive but not also define a corporation withholding necessary care from a poor person as violently coercive.

Doing nothing is not violent or coercive. It may be morally wrong for a person to do nothing, but it's not violent or coercive.

I disagree with the asymmetry. Withholding care isn't actually 'doing nothing' and has the ability to be violent or coercive. Take a life-saving but expensive pill. 'Doing nothing' in the case of someone who needs but can't afford the pill would be actually doing nothing - that person could waltz in, walk behind the counter, take the pill, swallow and walk out. Bada-bing bada boom, problem solved no violence or coercion. Healthcare providers don't actually do that though, someone who tried to walk in and take the pill would be met with violence in order to prevent them from accessing the pill until they had paid. That violence is coercive.

----------------

Since the mods are rate-limiting me, here's my reply to your post below:

>Otherwise every person in every situation who demands to be paid for their work, including doctors who demand to be paid by the state in a universal healthcare system are all being coercive.

I agree that this is coercion.

>When taken to that level, the word coerce ceases to have a useful meaning.

Well no, when taken to that level coerce retains it's meaning perfectly, it just happens to illustrate that the market system has coercion baked into almost every aspect. Here, this guy says it better than I can:

But there is no neutral construction of “coercion” that would ever support such a distinction. As Hale aptly demonstrates, coercion occurs when there are “background constraints on the universe of socially available choices from which an individual might ‘freely’ choose.”

In a world of scarcity, all economic rules–including rules that create private property ownership, contract laws, and so on–impose background constraints on the universe of choices individuals can make (e.g. the choice to move into a building and sleep in it without paying anyone anything). When we talk about the economy, we are not arguing about whether we want coercion. We are arguing about what coercion we’d like.

http://www.demos.org/blog/10/28/13/libertarians-are-huge-fan...

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#306

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see how you can define the state taking money from the wealthy to buy healthcare for the poor as violently coercive but not also define a corporation withholding necessary care from a poor person as violently coercive.

Doing nothing is not violent or coercive. It may be morally wrong for a person to do nothing, but it's not violent or coercive.

If you are able to help them, and you refuse to do so unless they do something for you (i.e. labour to earn money to pay your fees) then it is absolutely coercive.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#307
post #224

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Care for them under the universal system, but bill the cost of the universal system directly.

My mom got injured while hiking in a country with universal care. She hobbled to the next town, found a clinic, and got treated. Then she wanted to pay. First, the person at the clinic said: "What do you mean, you don't pay for health care." My mom explained that she was from another country. It turned out they didn't even have the means to take her money. Treating a few foreigners for free might actually be cheaper…

Evidently she was not hiking in Canada, where they definitely will treat you and then make sure you the tourist does pay the sizeable (though not USA exorbitant) bill. The Canadian system in fact does have many payers; federal, provincial, private insurers, are all payers.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#308
post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your getting downvoted for this, and I have no idea why. Have other folks actually stepped inside a VA facility? Many of them are old/outdated/underfunded it's true. But some of them truly do offer superior care to a typical private hospital (in staff, facilities, and outcomes). The VA system could use significant improvement, absolutely. But if the fear-mongering 'worst case scenario' is that everyone gets VA levels…

> But some of them truly do offer superior care to a typical private hospital Which ones? Because that has not been my experience at the hawaii facility. From my appointment time being written down on a piece of paper then they send me my actual appointment date a few months later to the doctor being an hour+ late, my personal experiences have been subpar. Add in how doctors/nurses at multiple hospitals do comically…

I would think it would be safe to say that the best VA hospitals are better than the worst private hospitals. I don't think that's a stretch.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe part of the problem is the mindset "banged my head on a table, time for the ER" ??? If you're young and healthy and you lightly bang your head on a table, you don't need the ER! It sounds like she wasn't even concussed! Sure, get checked out by a doctor, but this isn't a life or death situation, so don't clog up ER triage with your BS. That's like breaking your toe and calling an ambulance.

Maybe. But possible one in a hundred times, the "banged head on table" could lead to complications. I'm familiar with such a case. Somehow, everywhere in the developed world except the US, people can go to the ER-or-equivalent (many places have 24-hour clinics/triage centers that would send you to an ER only if needed) after they've banged their heads, and 99% of the time be told "go home, it's fine" without being ba…

  People go to "ER-or-equivalent".

  Immediately mentions a place that is not the same as ER that the US also has (clinics).
As I said -- she was wrong to go to the ER. She lives in NJ. I know for a fact there are loads of clinics she could've gone to and been sent home with a clean bill of health for $50 copay.

Re: Both in rich and poor countries, universal health care brings huge benefits

#310
post #289
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Again, this is not true. Read the studies comparing VA care to private care. You're actually better off going to a VA hospital than most private hospitals.

I've been to a VA hospital. My brother/dad/uncle have been to the same VA hospital. Our experiences have all been poor. If you were told that you'd get an appointment some time in the future and they sent you a notice randomly in the mail a few months later, you probably wouldn't be happy with the service. If your doctor was over an hour late, you wouldn't be happy. If you had a friend that was paralyzed after a spin…

>If your doctor was over an hour late, you wouldn't be happy.

Doctors aren't on time in privatized offices either. It's always a long wait for me. But you're right about the not being happy about it.

>If you had a friend that was paralyzed after a spinal tap (my dad's buddy) then you probably wouldn't hold the VA in high regard.

Yes, but that happens in private hospitals as well. They aren't all that great in the US either.

>f you were told that you'd get an appointment some time in the future and they sent you a notice randomly in the mail a few months later, you probably wouldn't be happy with the service.

Ya that sucks. Private industry has solved the scheduling problem with DSS and template based schedules. My uncle didn't have a good experience with the VA either. He had dementia and the nurse questioned him about it and he said "I have diabetes," which he did, but he didn't know what was going on. The nurse of course said, "we don't treat diabetes," or something like that and sent him away. All the while his sister was telling her about the dementia, she just didn't want to hear it.

I could tell you horror stories about private hospitals too and how after being admitted, they shipped him to a nursing home an hour away wearing nothing but a gown in winter. No calls, no nothing.

I guess the bottom line is right now, the US sucks at healthcare, period. I'm sure being a highly politicized wedge issue doesn't help matters much. (The VA, universal healthcare, skyrocketing costs in the private industry, etc).

Post reply on HN