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YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating

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Re: YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating

#271

Post by megablast »

majormajor wrote: post #39

A bit of chatter here about "it eventually catches up to people anyway" that I think misses the point. You want people to learn when the stakes are low. This is better for them, and it's better for all of us. School should gradually go from low stakes to higher stakes, not be a low-stakes zone the whole time that then tosses people into the real world. Otherwise you're presented with terrible choices like expelling a…

> The first solution that occurs to me seems to be smaller class sizes and differently structured assignments with more of a "tell me about why you wrote this" type interactive stuff. The same way you'd do when looking at someone's github, to see how deep their understanding of the code there goes.

What you are really saying is money. You need more money to do your solution.

Re: YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating

#272

Post by JumpCrisscross »

sytelus wrote: post #267
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One community particularly harmed by academic cheating is foreign students, particularly those from China and India. Cheating amongst foreign students, particularly those from India and China, occurs at elevated frequencies [1]. But there is money to be made. Universities earn fat tuitions. And parades of scumbags take exams, write papers and falsify figures for a fee. The result is limited enforcement in the specifi…

I think you are probably talking about wealthy students who gets into Ivy league through $2M+ donations. Vast majority of foreign students are too finance constrained even to survive with basic needs, let alone go shopping for paid cheating.

> I think you are probably talking about wealthy students who gets into Ivy league through $2M+ donations

The BBC article to which this thread is attached talks of a company advertising "essay[s]...starting at just $18.00 per page" [1]. Furthermore, the documented frequencies of foreign students cheating is too large to explain with solely income discrepancy.

[1] https://edubirdie.com

Re: YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating

#273

Post by learc83 »

eecsninja wrote: post #259
fjsolwmv wrote: post #254

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You keep failing to explain the difference between academic fraud and commercial fraud.

Commercial fraud: > The theory of contract espoused here demonstrates that fraud is properly viewed as a type of theft. Suppose Karen buys a bucket of apples from Ethan for $20. Ethan represents the things in the bucket as being apples, in fact, as apples of a certain nature, that is, as being fit for their normal purpose of being eaten. Karen conditions the transfer of title to her $20 on Ethan's not knowingly engag…

> It's a "victimless crime" essentially.

It's not a victimless crime.

1. Every CS class I took had some form of curve. People cheating directly lowered the grade of people who didn't.

2. Cheating devalues the credentials that other students paid for. You can argue about the benefits of the credentialing system, but that doesn't change that fact that students cheating directly financially harms students who don't cheat.

3. It harms job seekers who now have to spend time going through additional screening steps because their credentials are no longer trusted.

It really seems like your trying very hard to justify some past behavior here.

Re: YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating

#274

Post by nitrogen »

Retric wrote: post #93
s17n wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Often, the nuances of the real world defy simple syllogistic reasoning. This isn't one of those times.

Prove it. "Cheating" seems to have huge downsides, on the other hand it reduces friction inside of a rigid system. That is a net positive that stealing a TV from best buy simply does not have.

> That is a net positive that stealing a TV from best buy simply does not have.

A major NYC blackout resulted in a bunch of looting. That looting is supposed to have resulted in a bunch of new musicians getting their hands on good equipment. Those scofflaw musicians invented new musical genres that revolutionized the artform. Sounds a lot like reducing the friction inside a rigid system.

Basically, while we might prefer to have people raise integrity to the highest priority, life is complicated and it's sometimes hard to say a wrong thing is 100% wrong.

Re: YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating

#275

Post by JumpCrisscross »

eecsninja wrote: post #164
local_yokel wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is cheating only an issue in academia? It shows a lack of ethics and a lack of knowledge on the part of the student, and these are things that are quite important to being able to do a good job in the real world. You say "the current system is stupid", "academia is an artificial world", and "past projects and word of mouth" are what matters. Past projects and word of mouth are both systems that are ripe for manip…

I agree about the lack of ethics, but that's something to be screened by future employers or school admissions. I don't disagree with schools having penalties for cheating. But on the moral severity scale, it's really an infraction rather than a felony. Would you call jaywalkers bad people? If you want to see why I have such a disdain for academia, here's my story: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16726402

> that's something to be screened by future employers or school admissions

Like, by flagging cheaters and those who facilitate them. You're complaining about the disease as well as the cure.

Re: YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating

#276

Post by thaumasiotes »

sytelus wrote: post #267
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One community particularly harmed by academic cheating is foreign students, particularly those from China and India. Cheating amongst foreign students, particularly those from India and China, occurs at elevated frequencies [1]. But there is money to be made. Universities earn fat tuitions. And parades of scumbags take exams, write papers and falsify figures for a fee. The result is limited enforcement in the specifi…

I think you are probably talking about wealthy students who gets into Ivy league through $2M+ donations. Vast majority of foreign students are too finance constrained even to survive with basic needs, let alone go shopping for paid cheating.

> Vast majority of foreign students are too finance constrained even to survive with basic needs, let alone go shopping for paid cheating.

Where did you get this idea? Foreign students are overwhelmingly paying the foreign student tuition (much higher than domestic tuition) without receiving any financial aid.

Re: YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating

#277

Post by learc83 »

thaumasiotes wrote: post #276
sytelus wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are probably talking about wealthy students who gets into Ivy league through $2M+ donations. Vast majority of foreign students are too finance constrained even to survive with basic needs, let alone go shopping for paid cheating.

> Vast majority of foreign students are too finance constrained even to survive with basic needs, let alone go shopping for paid cheating. Where did you get this idea? Foreign students are overwhelmingly paying the foreign student tuition (much higher than domestic tuition) without receiving any financial aid.

Exactly. Foreign students also have to prove they can support themselves (on top of paying full price for tuition) before they're even allowed in. The majority of them are pretty well off.

Re: YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating

#278

Post by learc83 »

basementcat wrote: post #201
cmplxconjugate wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My partner is finishing their masters in China currently (native Chinese). The levels of cheating that go on within her course alone are mind boggling: 1. Girls asking their would-be boyfriends to complete their essays and attend modules. 2. Purchasing completed essays from Taobao. 3. Copy pasting others work from Baidu with only name alterations. 4. Paying exam setters for exam questions. Of course this is anecdotal…

I've observed all of these in the USA. I suspect this sort of thing transcends cultural and international borders. Possibly amusing anecdote: I know a smart* technical colleague who wrote at least 2 PhD dissertations for former romantic partners. As in "best dissertation award" + famous people on committee + etc , etc. The former romantic partners went on to have distinguished careers in management. * Depending on yo…

>I know a smart* technical colleague who wrote at least 2 PhD dissertations for former romantic partners

This is very hard to believe. From my experience this just couldn't work without near full time commitment by the ghost writer. The cheater would also have to be very familiar with the dissertation--to the point where they could have just written it themselves.

Pulling this off twice (or more since you said at least twice) is basically beyond belief (unless we're talking about a very disreputable university).

A PhD dissertation isn't something you can just turn in and you're done. And it's generally the result of years of work.

Re: YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating

#279

Post by improv32 »

baddox wrote: post #227
majormajor wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm claiming that encouraging plagiarism artificially punishes the "I can do the work but I freeze up in a high-pressure/high-stakes do-or-die situation like an interview" crowd - because it means that that's the only tool I can trust to weed out the people who've just coasted on bullshit their whole lives. The high-ness of the stakes at the college level seems to depend on if you have scholarships or similar - I've…

I don't know, I don't really see a parallel between a writing assignment and a high-pressure situation like an interview. The latter is essentially impossible to cheat on with anything resembling plagiarism.

What the parent means is that when cheating isn't accorded a serious enough response, the signaling value of a degree is watered down, so parent must rely more heavily on the interview, which is unfair to those who perform poorly in interview enviornments but are otherwise good at their job.

Re: YouTube Stars Being Paid to Sell Academic Cheating

#280

Post by dragonwriter »

learc83 wrote: post #278
basementcat wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've observed all of these in the USA. I suspect this sort of thing transcends cultural and international borders. Possibly amusing anecdote: I know a smart* technical colleague who wrote at least 2 PhD dissertations for former romantic partners. As in "best dissertation award" + famous people on committee + etc , etc. The former romantic partners went on to have distinguished careers in management. * Depending on yo…

>I know a smart* technical colleague who wrote at least 2 PhD dissertations for former romantic partners This is very hard to believe. From my experience this just couldn't work without near full time commitment by the ghost writer. The cheater would also have to be very familiar with the dissertation--to the point where they could have just written it themselves. Pulling this off twice (or more since you said at lea…

I find it plausible in a narrow sense of “write” that doesn't mean performing the substantive work, but merely assembling the formal written presentation of that work.
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