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California Supreme Court Transforms the Test for Who Is an Employee

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Re: California Supreme Court Transforms the Test for Who Is an Employee

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you've rehashed what I said -- That was meant to be to all the people wondering how this ruling would affect companies like Uber/Lyft/other gig economy companies. The answer is it won't affect them, because they'll do what it takes legally to act in their best interest, like they have always done (and have had way more resources than the average worker to do). So nothing will change, outside of a likely reducti…

The answer is it won't affect them, because they'll do what it takes legally to act in their best interest But how does that follow? You're essentially saying that no law can ever affect them, since they'll always "do what it takes legally to act in their best interest".

I didn't say no law, I was remarking in the very specific context of this one.

What I was trying to say is that this legislation is unlikely to affect the most successful gig economy companies very much, if at all, because they'll likely find the best way to circumvent it. Even if they don't there's already very large corporations doing their best not to pay employees higher wages by taking advantage of the differences in protection for part-time and full-time classified workers.

Basically, the most upside I see for the worker with this legislation is every driver in a company like Uber needing to become an "employee". Let's assume that happens. I would expect Uber or any of the other companies to immediately take steps to reconfigure to evade this -- which I think in the "worst" (for the company, as in they weren't able to evade well) case is accepting employees but limiting them to part-time status -- it's already worked very well for companies like Walmart (and badly for the communities and workers there).

On the other hand, there is also an upside for Uber/gig economy companies -- the reduction in risk in the legal arena makes them much more attractive as an investment. Up until now, it's been an open question -- this will do much to close it. That benefit will ripple to the other lesser gig economy companies, because they will have a playbook to follow.

Re: California Supreme Court Transforms the Test for Who Is an Employee

#102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not quite an exclusive or. The service is not outside of business standard variety. Other cab companies have client driven matchmaking systems too now... They also employ office workers. The workplace for a cab driver is his car. Therefore, what Uber does would make them a cab company that abuses contractors instead of employing employees. However, the key point here is the test A. If Uber is specifically tel…

Considering the actual text posted by jaggederest in another comment, it does seem to be an exclusive or: "the services provided were either outside the usual course of business or performed outside of all the places of business of the enterprise" Regarding other cab companies, most cab drivers have been traditionally classified as contractors. The idea that Uber introduced this practice is propaganda.

That isn't an exclusive or; the English language lets that be interpreted as either an xor or or, and the reasoning of the context shows it to be an or.

To iterate; the statement sets out two conditions, either of which are sufficient independent of the other, and claims that each of a number of services met one of those conditions.

Re: California Supreme Court Transforms the Test for Who Is an Employee

#103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not quite an exclusive or. The service is not outside of business standard variety. Other cab companies have client driven matchmaking systems too now... They also employ office workers. The workplace for a cab driver is his car. Therefore, what Uber does would make them a cab company that abuses contractors instead of employing employees. However, the key point here is the test A. If Uber is specifically tel…

> Fudging with scoring system to fire those who do not follow such orders indirectly could be construed as such as well. Surely companies must be allowed some method to ensure the quality of work they desire.

No one's saying they can't be allowed such a method. But it may be the case that for persistent business relationships doing so may mean an employee/employer relationship rather than the relationship between a business and an independent contractor.

Re: California Supreme Court Transforms the Test for Who Is an Employee

#104

The change seems immaterial to me except that it’s much clearer. The article author injects a social justice angle without describing any specific impact. Who is really affected by this? Any concrete examples?

FedEx, UPS, Amazon Logistics, basically every delivery company. Everyone in delivery these days is an "independent contractor" with no control over their route or hours, working for a business that does nothing but deliveries.

Re: California Supreme Court Transforms the Test for Who Is an Employee

#105
post #14

Ouch. Some of my favorite gigs I've ever performed aren't possible under this standard. I question whether this will actually benefit contractors, but I have no doubt that it will benefit bigger, established players who already have full-time cadres.

> Some of my favorite gigs I've ever performed aren't possible under this standard. Let's not assume that because the cost to the employer goes up, they will drop all the former 'contractor' positions. Employee rates are based on what the market will bear, subject to law and regulation; they are not based on 'cost-minus' - cost to the employer, minus a profit. Using a very simple case of the cost and benefit: If the…

For some (non-IT) companies programmers are always a sunk cost, so this math doesn't work there.

Re: California Supreme Court Transforms the Test for Who Is an Employee

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer is it won't affect them, because they'll do what it takes legally to act in their best interest But how does that follow? You're essentially saying that no law can ever affect them, since they'll always "do what it takes legally to act in their best interest".

I didn't say no law, I was remarking in the very specific context of this one. What I was trying to say is that this legislation is unlikely to affect the most successful gig economy companies very much, if at all, because they'll likely find the best way to circumvent it. Even if they don't there's already very large corporations doing their best not to pay employees higher wages by taking advantage of the differenc…

I got that you were talking about this law, but what I was missing was what you thought made this particular law different than others which would affect them. Now I think it's clearer.

That said, I'm not sure I agree that part-time wouldn't be that bad. It works for Walmart because their employees have low fixed costs for working (essentially just the commuting), so working fewer hours is still worthwhile.

But Uber depends on drivers buying new cars, which often they pay off by driving many hours per day. Once you limit that, they will lose everyone except the casual drivers.

The alternatives I see to this are not great for Uber: they either have to (1) buy and maintain their own fleet, or (2) accept competition so that drivers can fill up their daily schedule by working for multiple companies.

Re: California Supreme Court Transforms the Test for Who Is an Employee

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Considering the actual text posted by jaggederest in another comment, it does seem to be an exclusive or: "the services provided were either outside the usual course of business or performed outside of all the places of business of the enterprise" Regarding other cab companies, most cab drivers have been traditionally classified as contractors. The idea that Uber introduced this practice is propaganda.

That isn't an exclusive or; the English language lets that be interpreted as either an xor or or, and the reasoning of the context shows it to be an or. To iterate; the statement sets out two conditions, either of which are sufficient independent of the other, and claims that each of a number of services met one of those conditions.

Thanks, I'm not a native speaker, and I thought either/or was a xor.

Re: California Supreme Court Transforms the Test for Who Is an Employee

#109
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So if any one of those conditions isn't the case, you are an employee under the law. I see people in this thread wondering how it'll affect companies like Uber/Lyft/whatever 'B' is downright apocalyptic for contract developers in all sorts of roles. Sounds like massive judicial overreach to me. If your summary is accurate, I wouldn't expect that particular guideline to survive appeal.

If you are an IT company and all your work is done through contract developers, perhaps you _are_ going against the spirit of the law. Labor law is meant to protect those in the employer employee relationship, and most contractual work explicitly weaken this relationship a lot. So contractual work really shouldn't be the norm in a business. If you can't provide your main business without this set of people, then thos…

> If you can't provide your main business without this set of people, then those people are probably your employees?

This doesn't make any sense. Farmers are not employees of grocery stores. Factory foremen are not employees of drop shippers. Amazon warehouse staff are also not employees of drop shippers. Comcast cable layers are not employees of YouTube.

You think farmers aren't employees of grocery stores because the stores could buy the same food from different farmers? That's just as true of the IT company and its contract developers.

Re: California Supreme Court Transforms the Test for Who Is an Employee

#110
post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you are an IT company and all your work is done through contract developers, perhaps you _are_ going against the spirit of the law. Labor law is meant to protect those in the employer employee relationship, and most contractual work explicitly weaken this relationship a lot. So contractual work really shouldn't be the norm in a business. If you can't provide your main business without this set of people, then thos…

> If you can't provide your main business without this set of people, then those people are probably your employees? This doesn't make any sense. Farmers are not employees of grocery stores. Factory foremen are not employees of drop shippers. Amazon warehouse staff are also not employees of drop shippers. Comcast cable layers are not employees of YouTube. You think farmers aren't employees of grocery stores because t…

But that is wildly different. A farmer provides goods that hold value for almost anyone. Once they have produced a bushel of apples, that bushel can be bought by anyone. On the contrary, once a software developer has produced some code, it only holds value for the specific company that order this specific piece of code.
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