Smartphone cradle used to cheat “10k steps/day” health insurance discounts • Hacker News Board

Re: Smartphone cradle used to cheat “10k steps/day” health insurance discounts

#51

Post by otakucode » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 9:34 PM UTC

Johnny555 wrote: post #20

ams6110 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot. I'd be surprised if any Business Management 101 class didn't teach that if there is a reward involved, people will maximize for whatever critera you measure.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobra_effect The term cobra effect originated in an anecdote set at the time of British rule of colonial India. The British government was concerned about the number of venomous cobra snakes in Delhi.[3] The government therefore offered bounty for every dead cobra. Initially this was a successful strategy as large numbers of snakes were killed for the reward. Eventually, however, enterpr…

Things like that should be, but never are, a real teaching moment for people. Manipulating social behavior through any means other than education (which isn't manipulation) leads to destructive unintended consequences. Look at what happened in the USA thanks to the American Heart Association.

The AHA thought they saw a slight suggestion in the data that high levels of saturated fat led to heart disease. They wanted to stop heart disease. So they set a goal. Reduce the average Americans dietary intake of saturated fats by 15%. They worked for years with other agencies, legislators, regulators, and food companies. And they succeeded! They dropped the average Americans intake of saturated fats (well specifically the portion of the daily calorie intake made up of saturated fats) by 15%!

There was an issue though. Food makers took fat out of their foods, producing "Lite" versions. These tasted like cardboard. People stopped buying. To get people to buy their products again, they brought back the flavor. With salt and lots of sugar. This led to a gigantic increase in the total number of calories people ate. Which led to a nationwide obesity episdemic. Which led to a national diabetes epidemic. Which led to record-breaking levels of... heart disease.

Oh, and research found that saturated fats aren't a danger to heart health. But once you've put things into law, established practices and regulations, it's tremendously difficult to change. If they had just told everyone they thought saturated fats might cause heart disease, none of this would have happened. And they would have been able to retract their statements on a dime.

Re: Smartphone cradle used to cheat “10k steps/day” health insurance discounts

#52

Post by tedunangst » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 9:37 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #36

tedunangst wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because dehazarding waste is more difficult than chopping up a snake?

But letting the snakes go is even easier. Use the example of people littering instead of using a trash can, or not flushing public toilets, if you need a demonstration of how people can't be bothered with even simple tasks.

Most people aren't worried their litter will literally come back to bite them. Were the snake breeders really unconcerned that dumping a bunch of snakes out the back window wouldn't have consequences?

Re: Smartphone cradle used to cheat “10k steps/day” health insurance discounts

#53

Post by logfromblammo » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 9:38 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #29

darkstar999 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why?

Because I dislike the idea of insurance companies nosing in on my private life and telling me how to spend my time. I'm sure someone will object that participation is voluntary, but I expect it to go along the familiar voluntary with perks -> penalties if not participating -> outright mandatory progression.

I also have a stubbornness gene in me that encourages me to spitefully resist all attempts to meddle in my lifestyle by sanctimonious blowhards that couldn't care less about my actual well being.

The last contact I had with such a voluntary insurance program, it consisted entirely of the insured calling in to a call center, to have someone nag them to create health goals and then nag more to make progress. No thanks; I'm already married. I could have just blathed my way through to collect the cash reward at the end, but I decided I didn't want to feed that system with my attention, and opted out. Later iterations haven't seemed any better, and I too fear the "voluntary" -> "economically enforced" -> "mandatory" progression.

If you want me to walk 10k steps every day, the cash reward might be enough to reflect the lower claims paid out to frequent walkers, but it won't even begin to cover the excess cortisol, expressed because I can't stand the thought of my insurance company electronically monitoring my every move and judging me based on how much I can manage.

(Genealogical anecdotes suggest the stubbornness is Scottish in origin. The "go boil your head" temperament is strongly associated with a specific family name, traceable back to Edinburgh.)

Re: Smartphone cradle used to cheat “10k steps/day” health insurance discounts

#54

Post by 8ytecoder » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 9:40 PM UTC

liveoneggs wrote: post #45

Steltek wrote: post #12

I bike 15+ miles a day but my work's discount program doesn't "support" biking. If I was into vigilante justice, I'd consider a solution like this too. But as it is, I'm quite content biking for my own sake rather than some pittance of a benefit.

are you more likely to sustain an injury than someone who is mostly idle?

Do you have statistics to indicate biking is inherently more dangerous than other activities or are you just repeating a certain assumption you have?

Re: Smartphone cradle used to cheat “10k steps/day” health insurance discounts

#55

Post by gascan » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 9:42 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #10

Wellness programs and similar initiatives are so repellent to me that I'm pretty sympathetic to everyone fooling them.

Turn it around- perhaps the low risk individuals find subsidizing the high risk individuals equally repellent. Wellness programs allow those individuals to recover some of their premiums.

Re: Smartphone cradle used to cheat “10k steps/day” health insurance discounts

#56

Post by otakucode » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 9:44 PM UTC

bluGill wrote: post #33

ikeboy wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a strong correlation between IQ and life expectancy, possibly mostly genetic

My guess is it is childhood. I see poor people eating junk food all the time and feed that to their kids - the kids are fat on empty calories and so the brain doesn't get what it needs to grow smart. That is just a guess though. I don't have the ability to verify it.

There are plenty of fat smart people. The brain does not develop, and especially does not develop knowledge, as a result of the passage of time and metabolic processes. It develops, both structurally and in terms of 'contents', solely as a response to repeated stimulus. We don't really have a word for a situation where a persons life is impoverished due to lack of intellectual stimulus, but we certainly have the condition. Some kids grow up in homes where if they ask a question, they'll get an answer. Others grow up in homes where an asked question is replied to by the parent dismissively saying 'I don't know' (sending a clear message that the child shouldn't want to know) as they turn back to reading about celebrity gossip. No amount of clean eating can overcome that sort of poverty. Internet access can, though.

Re: Smartphone cradle used to cheat “10k steps/day” health insurance discounts

#57

Post by ransom1538 » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 9:46 PM UTC

forgueam wrote: post #28

I did something similar in college. A company paid cash for installing software that displayed ads on the bottom of your monitor. It qualified your ad viewing activity based on mouse movement. At night I would open the software, wrap my mouse cord around an oscillating desk fan, then go to bed. Earned myself $50/month

Remember, you aren't ripping off the shady ad companies. Actually, you are doing what they want you to do. You are ripping off the merchants (people buying ads) who just don't know better.

Re: Smartphone cradle used to cheat “10k steps/day” health insurance discounts

#58

Post by bittercynic » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 9:50 PM UTC

ransom1538 wrote: post #57

forgueam wrote: post #28

I did something similar in college. A company paid cash for installing software that displayed ads on the bottom of your monitor. It qualified your ad viewing activity based on mouse movement. At night I would open the software, wrap my mouse cord around an oscillating desk fan, then go to bed. Earned myself $50/month

Remember, you aren't ripping off the shady ad companies. Actually, you are doing what they want you to do. You are ripping off the merchants (people buying ads) who just don't know better.

It may end up being both, though, since you're also making the shady ad company's impressions less effective.

Re: Smartphone cradle used to cheat “10k steps/day” health insurance discounts

#59

Post by charleyma » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 9:50 PM UTC

I've always found that anytime time a financial outcome is tied to some sort of behavior incentive, weird behaviors come out. This especially comes out in sales, where whether you like it or not, individuals will typically optimize for the best financial outcome, which is not always explicitly connected to what's best for the company.

Re: Smartphone cradle used to cheat “10k steps/day” health insurance discounts

#60

Post by bluGill » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 9:54 PM UTC

otakucode wrote: post #56

bluGill wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My guess is it is childhood. I see poor people eating junk food all the time and feed that to their kids - the kids are fat on empty calories and so the brain doesn't get what it needs to grow smart. That is just a guess though. I don't have the ability to verify it.

There are plenty of fat smart people. The brain does not develop, and especially does not develop knowledge, as a result of the passage of time and metabolic processes. It develops, both structurally and in terms of 'contents', solely as a response to repeated stimulus. We don't really have a word for a situation where a persons life is impoverished due to lack of intellectual stimulus, but we certainly have the cond…

There are people who eat enough healthy food to get the needed nutrition, along with the junk food.

Be honest here: we are both speculating about that which we don't know, and it is hard to study.