Detroit Was Crumbling, Now It's Reviving • Hacker News Board

Re: Detroit Was Crumbling, Now It's Reviving

#111

Post by Eire_Banshee » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 8:06 PM UTC

AFNobody wrote: post #106

Eire_Banshee wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Trades pay very well with just a high school education. > "Nowadays, "working-class, blue-collar" stuff does not make money`" is just flat out wrong. That line of thinking is a major contributing factor to the shortage of labor in blue collar fields, along with mass amounts of young adults with crippling college debt.

Trades pay well with a customer base to support them. The core problem is, ultimately, the customer base is led by the white collar jobs who lack the skills to perform those tasks. The blue collar tradesmen, frankly, has the skills to avoid buying services from each other. I know a mechanic that does her own plumbing, electrical, etc. She'd never try to make money at it but to the best of my knowledge the only time s…

People will always own houses. People will always be too lazy to learn how to do things themselves. But thats besides the point, the real money in trades is commercial work, not residential.

Re: Detroit Was Crumbling, Now It's Reviving

#112

Post by int_19h » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 8:12 PM UTC

stanfordkid wrote: post #92

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Everyone in America doesn't want to stare at a computer, drink $5 latte's, and eat farm to table food. There is nothing wrong with a town that has $3 beers in a plastic cup and a crowd of people screaming until at the TV until they are horse. There is nothing shameful about marrying a man or woman while holding each other's calloused hands at the alter. Sure, but the money for that has to come from somewhere. Nowada…

I think the "everyone can be a millionaire via college" mentality has created a focus on higher education (engineering, medical school, law school etc.) ... and dissuaded people from professions which may be very worthwhile (welder, autoshop-owner) ... but will cap out at wages of $200k-$300k. We've made these jobs seem "dirty" and low class when they're not.

The irony is that a lot (I would even say, most) of what's being done in the software engineering field is really more of a trade, and would likely benefit from being treated accordingly - including having trade schools rather than colleges teaching that stuff. I'm sure there are other industries like that.

When enough people realize just how much of it is smoke and mirrors, I think the common snobbery towards those "dirty" jobs would dissipate. Right now, it's self-reinforcing, because being "better than those guys" is part of white collar identity, regardless of pay. It reminds me of the racial arrangement in Jim Crow South, where even the most poor whites would find solace in that they're not on the lowest rung of the social ladder.

Re: Detroit Was Crumbling, Now It's Reviving

#113

Post by vinay427 » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 8:14 PM UTC

omegaworks wrote: post #95

trop wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> their location on the water Which I misread as "the location of their water". Which is actually quite serious. See https://www.wbez.org/shows/wbez-news/in-dayton-ohio-an-econo... > As states like California face major water shortages, city officials in Dayton sense a business opportunity. ... the self-filtering, self-recharging freshwater supply, along with the rivers, once made Dayton attractive to water-intensive…

This is exactly why Nestle set up shop in Michigan. They can afford to maintain their own infrastructure to pump and bottle the cheap, abundant water and the government could give a damn about the marginalized, majority black and latino population that remains in the area. Big corporate players are noticing the trend and playing the long game. There's a reason why Michigan and Wisconsin have crippled collective barga…

> There's a reason why Michigan and Wisconsin have crippled collective bargaining and imposed restrictive voter-ID measures.

This is, in all practical matters, incorrect for Michigan. See the following, directly from the relevant authority's website:

"Michigan does have a voter identification requirement at the polls. Voters are asked to present an acceptable photo ID such as a Michigan driver's license or identification card. Please note that voters who do not have an acceptable form of ID or failed to bring it with them to the polls still can vote. They simply sign a brief affidavit stating that they're not in possession of a photo ID. Their ballots are included with all others and counted on Election Day."

https://www.michigan.gov/sos/0,4670,7-127-29836-202520--F,00...

I lived in the state for years and met many people who never showed acceptable ID to vote.

Re: Detroit Was Crumbling, Now It's Reviving

#114

Post by ajross » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 8:19 PM UTC

SquirrelOnFire wrote: post #82

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Everyone in America doesn't want to stare at a computer, drink $5 latte's, and eat farm to table food. There is nothing wrong with a town that has $3 beers in a plastic cup and a crowd of people screaming until at the TV until they are horse. There is nothing shameful about marrying a man or woman while holding each other's calloused hands at the alter. Sure, but the money for that has to come from somewhere. Nowada…

>Nowadays, "working-class, blue-collar" stuff does not make money, and if "working-class, blue-collar" people identify with the economic system which designates their labor as a cost to be repressed rather than a service to be rewarded, I'm not sure how much I can do about that. Maybe by pointing to blue collar work that still pays well. A buddy of mine is an auto mechanic and is the sole income earner for his family…

> A buddy of mine [...] is an auto mechanic [...another...] is a pipe fitter for gas pipelines [...] next time you call a plumber.

Noted without comment that these are all predominantly white, male occupations.

Would you say the same thing about dish washing, fruit picking, house cleaning or school teaching? Does that alter your thinking about whether or not "trades" make money? Does it make you want to argue about what constitutes a "trade"?

I'm not so much calling your wrong, just pointing out that the perspective here is skewed. Arguing that "blue collar work is just fine" by pointing out to one particular, historically dominant in-group maybe doesn't make the argument you think it does.

In the modern economy, we need to staff a lot more restaurants and schools than we do pipe fitting crews. How does your argument change when you look at those occupations?

Edit to clarify: the point here is that you can't fix things by having more people go into car repair and pipe fitting and plumbing because those jobs are already taken. We have plenty of plumbers in our society. Why? Because as the grandparent mentioned plumbing is a desirable job and it pays well.

And, being a desirable job, it's, yeah, been monopolized by a particular subgroup within the larger demographics. So to a white dude, the "just be a plumber" advice makes more sense than is really appropriate.

Re: Detroit Was Crumbling, Now It's Reviving

#115

Post by alexhutcheson » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 8:31 PM UTC

rmason wrote: post #102

dizzystar wrote: post #22

Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Toledo, and so on got absolutely destroyed after all the mills were shut down. The bar for reviving is incredibly low. Those that could leave, left. The very people that could quicken the recovery of the fallen Midwestern towns are the same people who left. Detroit has UM, Cleveland has Case Western, Pittsburgh has Carnegie Mellon which are all top-flight schools. In a strange way, the…

Actually U of M is in Ann Arbor which is 40 miles West. Though there is a satellite campus in Dearborn which is in the suburbs. Detroit has Wayne State University which is growing with the addition of a new business school courtesy of the late Mike Ilitch the founder of Little Caesars. https://ilitchbusiness.wayne.edu/ There are also two smaller colleges, Marygrove and University of Detroit Mercy.

Ann Arbor, not incidentally, appears to be doing really well relative to comparable cities and towns in the Midwest.

Re: Detroit Was Crumbling, Now It's Reviving

#116

Post by Armisael16 » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 8:40 PM UTC

rmason wrote: post #102

dizzystar wrote: post #22

Detroit, Cleveland, Pittsburgh, Toledo, and so on got absolutely destroyed after all the mills were shut down. The bar for reviving is incredibly low. Those that could leave, left. The very people that could quicken the recovery of the fallen Midwestern towns are the same people who left. Detroit has UM, Cleveland has Case Western, Pittsburgh has Carnegie Mellon which are all top-flight schools. In a strange way, the…

Actually U of M is in Ann Arbor which is 40 miles West. Though there is a satellite campus in Dearborn which is in the suburbs. Detroit has Wayne State University which is growing with the addition of a new business school courtesy of the late Mike Ilitch the founder of Little Caesars. https://ilitchbusiness.wayne.edu/ There are also two smaller colleges, Marygrove and University of Detroit Mercy.

Ann Arbor would be an outlying suburb of Detroit if UM wasn't here.

Re: Detroit Was Crumbling, Now It's Reviving

#117

Post by TomMckenny » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 8:46 PM UTC

mbesto wrote: post #101

SquirrelOnFire wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Nowadays, "working-class, blue-collar" stuff does not make money, and if "working-class, blue-collar" people identify with the economic system which designates their labor as a cost to be repressed rather than a service to be rewarded, I'm not sure how much I can do about that. Maybe by pointing to blue collar work that still pays well. A buddy of mine is an auto mechanic and is the sole income earner for his family…

> Pay attention to how much you spend next time you call a plumber. Anecdotal, but the average quote I got for electricians in the bay area was $200/hour. This is also consistent for electricians in the wealthy suburbs of Chicago (just had a friend recently get work done at that price). I recently paid $2k to get a transmission done, of which $1700 was labor alone (took 3 days). Point is - these trades are no joke wh…

Where did that $2k come from? While it's nice there is some way to redistribute wealth in this way, unfortunately service sector jobs don't create wealth: you can not have a city solely of repairmen and realtors.

Less skilled factory work would generate wealth, but unfortunately those are the exact jobs that left.

Re: Detroit Was Crumbling, Now It's Reviving

#118

Post by randcraw » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 8:47 PM UTC

alexhutcheson wrote: post #115

rmason wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually U of M is in Ann Arbor which is 40 miles West. Though there is a satellite campus in Dearborn which is in the suburbs. Detroit has Wayne State University which is growing with the addition of a new business school courtesy of the late Mike Ilitch the founder of Little Caesars. https://ilitchbusiness.wayne.edu/ There are also two smaller colleges, Marygrove and University of Detroit Mercy.

Ann Arbor, not incidentally, appears to be doing really well relative to comparable cities and towns in the Midwest.

Yeah, but the jobs created in A2 are few and significantly underpay comparable jobs in Chicago or Pittsburgh. The appeal of living near UofM has long depressed wages there and this shows no sign of changing soon.

It's noteworthy that, beyond UofM's 50,000 students, the population of A2 is no more than 100K. That just isn't enough to draw large employers (like the Amazon HQ2) or gestate explosive growth. Thus job prospects aren't likely to boom in A2, ever, nor will A2 (or UofM) play a significant role in driving Detroit's renaissance.

Re: Detroit Was Crumbling, Now It's Reviving

#119

Post by astrodust » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 8:51 PM UTC

stanfordkid wrote: post #92

eli_gottlieb wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Everyone in America doesn't want to stare at a computer, drink $5 latte's, and eat farm to table food. There is nothing wrong with a town that has $3 beers in a plastic cup and a crowd of people screaming until at the TV until they are horse. There is nothing shameful about marrying a man or woman while holding each other's calloused hands at the alter. Sure, but the money for that has to come from somewhere. Nowada…

I think the "everyone can be a millionaire via college" mentality has created a focus on higher education (engineering, medical school, law school etc.) ... and dissuaded people from professions which may be very worthwhile (welder, autoshop-owner) ... but will cap out at wages of $200k-$300k. We've made these jobs seem "dirty" and low class when they're not.

It's less about the cap and more about the wage curve. Some industries are extremely punishing. As a musician you either make nothing or millions. As an architect you get paid poverty wages or you're internationally famous and can name your price.

If you're a welder you'll get a very good starting wage, and while it will never hit stratospheric levels, the upper end when you you've had years of experience and have worked to increase your qualifications can be extraordinarily generous.

I know two highly qualified welders that work on oil plant equipment and they make so much money they can afford to take half the year off to do whatever they want. You don't want random idiots welding pipes in a billion dollar plant, and you need to pay for that kind of talent.

Consider: Tech workers often get paid very well, but I don't know of many that get overtime.

Re: Detroit Was Crumbling, Now It's Reviving

#120

Post by randcraw » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 8:54 PM UTC

Armisael16 wrote: post #116

rmason wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually U of M is in Ann Arbor which is 40 miles West. Though there is a satellite campus in Dearborn which is in the suburbs. Detroit has Wayne State University which is growing with the addition of a new business school courtesy of the late Mike Ilitch the founder of Little Caesars. https://ilitchbusiness.wayne.edu/ There are also two smaller colleges, Marygrove and University of Detroit Mercy.

Ann Arbor would be an outlying suburb of Detroit if UM wasn't here.

While I believe a few of the Ford family live in the A2 area still, that's only because Dearborn is already west of Detroit's center, thereby shortening their trip to Ford's HQ. But even without rush hour traffic, A2 is more than an hour's drive from Woodward Ave, inevitably straight down I-94.

I suspect not even the heirs and heiresses of Detroit's tycoons are willing to shuttle daily from A2 into Detroit proper.