IRS’ 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware • Hacker News Board

Re: IRS’ 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware

#71

Post by acdha » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 7:28 PM UTC

mbell wrote: post #32

johnklos wrote: post #18

Something that the kids of IT today will never learn: Never replace anything unless the thing doing the replacing is better than the thing being replaced. The IRS' IT "upgrade" is just a huge money grab. Nobody has the slightest interest or desire to do anything properly - they simply want in on that lucrative IRS money. It's like the saying: "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no ac…

Or you can continuously keep your code / systems up to date and never get wedged into a nearly impossible situation of having to rewrite 60 year old code (which likely has nothing resembling a test suite nor even a spare piece of compatible hardware to test on).

Most people would like that but think about how that sounds from a budget perspective: a bunch of pricey employees for something which seems to already be working fine, with a constant stream of political grandstanding lies about waste and overpaid staff. Most big organizations have trouble funding maintenance & operations versus new features and the government is especially subject to that because there are so many outside voices who benefit from criticism and have no vested interest in success.

The .gov pay scale has not kept pace with either inflation or IT wages and the benefits have been cut by Congress at various points so that’s less of a balance than it used to be. The GS-15 position mentioned in the IRS staffing article is the top of the non-executive scale and technical positions tend to be rare and specialized; managers are overseeing a fair amount of staff and budget. In DC, that starts at $134k and tops at $164k - not bad but DC isn’t a cheap place to live either: https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries...

Re: IRS’ 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware

#72

Post by WorldMaker » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 7:30 PM UTC

conanbatt wrote: post #60

monocasa wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can stay away from regressive schemes like a flat tax, and have a tax system with a rubberstamp level of UX. That's how it works in most of Europe and could work here. The IRS already has all of the information needed outside of gambling and stocks, and could simply send you forms already filled out for you to sign. H&R Block and TurboTax simply heavily lobby to keep this from happening to keep their business mod…

Whats interesting about the flat taxes is that it makes it hard to avoid at the highest levels, where complex tax structures end up having a very variant level of taxation. Much like corporate taxation is 35%, but google or facebook pay only 11%. Milton Friedman used to say that a flat tax of 15% would be enough to replace the entire scheme of income tax. There is also one major boon: lots of capital is spent on taxe…

Regressive doesn't refer to how the taxes are spent. Regressive refers to the fact that 15 cents out of every dollar matters a whole lot more to someone on minimum wage and living paycheck to paycheck. Regressive refers to the fact that a true "no exemptions" hits the poor more than the rich. So the left has to set aside exemptions for the poor, and that leaves room open for lobbyists to drive trucks full of money into adding more and more exemptions.

Re: IRS’ 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware

#73

Post by RightMillennial » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 7:35 PM UTC

monocasa wrote: post #69

conanbatt wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whats interesting about the flat taxes is that it makes it hard to avoid at the highest levels, where complex tax structures end up having a very variant level of taxation. Much like corporate taxation is 35%, but google or facebook pay only 11%. Milton Friedman used to say that a flat tax of 15% would be enough to replace the entire scheme of income tax. There is also one major boon: lots of capital is spent on taxe…

First off, the difference between regressive and progressive says nothing about how the taxes are spent. A flat tax is regressive by definition. Secondly, I'm not a big fan of how you (and quite a few economists) conflate personal and corporate income taxes. It really muddies the water as even questions like "what even is income" is different between the two. Additionally, flat tax doesn't go well with the left. On t…

Technically, a flat tax by definition is neither regressive nor progressive, it is proportional. Federal income taxes and I presume corporate taxes are currently progressive (with a million and one deductions). Moving to a flat tax for either of those would be a move in the regressive direction, but it's still not technically regressive.

Personally, I'm fine with taxes having progressive rates but not the countless deductions.

Re: IRS’ 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware

#74

Post by walrus01 » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 7:39 PM UTC

cptskippy wrote: post #54

I feel like the authors of this article are being very misleading by using broader terms where they could be more specific, like using system where they could instead say software. The IRS isn't running 60 year old hardware, and the failure was in hardware that was just 18 months old. But because the IRS is running software that is 60 years old, the authors can claim the "system" dates back to the 1960s. It's also cl…

the z/whatever to host legacy mainframe applications is basically a bare metal platform, custom hypervisor OS, running system 360 VMs, right?

Re: IRS’ 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware

#75

Post by conanbatt » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 7:41 PM UTC

WorldMaker wrote: post #72

conanbatt wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whats interesting about the flat taxes is that it makes it hard to avoid at the highest levels, where complex tax structures end up having a very variant level of taxation. Much like corporate taxation is 35%, but google or facebook pay only 11%. Milton Friedman used to say that a flat tax of 15% would be enough to replace the entire scheme of income tax. There is also one major boon: lots of capital is spent on taxe…

Regressive doesn't refer to how the taxes are spent. Regressive refers to the fact that 15 cents out of every dollar matters a whole lot more to someone on minimum wage and living paycheck to paycheck. Regressive refers to the fact that a true "no exemptions" hits the poor more than the rich. So the left has to set aside exemptions for the poor, and that leaves room open for lobbyists to drive trucks full of money in…

A 5% tax levied on everywhere to a lamborghini subsidy policy is regressive. It is important to look at both sides of the equation to make a conclusion.

Thats why you can have a flat tax, and a progressive government by spending for the poorer and levying flat. In fact, a flat tax is probably progressive simply because the rich dont use a multitude of public services the average poor does, like schooling, or healthcare or whatever.

Re: IRS’ 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware

#76

Post by cafard » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 7:43 PM UTC

jesusthatsgreat wrote: post #51

johnklos wrote: post #18

Something that the kids of IT today will never learn: Never replace anything unless the thing doing the replacing is better than the thing being replaced. The IRS' IT "upgrade" is just a huge money grab. Nobody has the slightest interest or desire to do anything properly - they simply want in on that lucrative IRS money. It's like the saying: "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no ac…

> Never replace anything unless the thing doing the replacing is better than the thing being replaced. The problem is 'better' is subjective. Plenty of mechanics will tell you older cars are better because they're easier to repair, don't require specialist machine diagnostics, have manual buttons / levers / knobs that are easier to troubleshoot than digital versions. To most drivers however, newer cars are better bec…

Modern cars in general get much better mileage and are much safer to drive in. (Yes, airbag shrapnel has happened.)

Re: IRS’ 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware

#77

Post by bitwize » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 7:43 PM UTC

RightMillennial wrote: post #73

monocasa wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First off, the difference between regressive and progressive says nothing about how the taxes are spent. A flat tax is regressive by definition. Secondly, I'm not a big fan of how you (and quite a few economists) conflate personal and corporate income taxes. It really muddies the water as even questions like "what even is income" is different between the two. Additionally, flat tax doesn't go well with the left. On t…

Technically, a flat tax by definition is neither regressive nor progressive, it is proportional. Federal income taxes and I presume corporate taxes are currently progressive (with a million and one deductions). Moving to a flat tax for either of those would be a move in the regressive direction, but it's still not technically regressive. Personally, I'm fine with taxes having progressive rates but not the countless d…

Flat taxes are regressive. Period. The reason why is because a bigger proportion of the income of the poor must be spent on necessities, so a flat tax rate is going to impact their ability to pay for necessities much more than the same tax rate paid by a rich person.

Re: IRS’ 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware

#78

Post by monocasa » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 7:43 PM UTC

RightMillennial wrote: post #73

monocasa wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First off, the difference between regressive and progressive says nothing about how the taxes are spent. A flat tax is regressive by definition. Secondly, I'm not a big fan of how you (and quite a few economists) conflate personal and corporate income taxes. It really muddies the water as even questions like "what even is income" is different between the two. Additionally, flat tax doesn't go well with the left. On t…

Technically, a flat tax by definition is neither regressive nor progressive, it is proportional. Federal income taxes and I presume corporate taxes are currently progressive (with a million and one deductions). Moving to a flat tax for either of those would be a move in the regressive direction, but it's still not technically regressive. Personally, I'm fine with taxes having progressive rates but not the countless d…

Technically it is regressive. The flat amount comes out of rent and food on the low end of your tax base, and luxury on the high end.

Re: IRS’ 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware

#79

Post by WorldMaker » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 7:45 PM UTC

conanbatt wrote: post #75

WorldMaker wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Regressive doesn't refer to how the taxes are spent. Regressive refers to the fact that 15 cents out of every dollar matters a whole lot more to someone on minimum wage and living paycheck to paycheck. Regressive refers to the fact that a true "no exemptions" hits the poor more than the rich. So the left has to set aside exemptions for the poor, and that leaves room open for lobbyists to drive trucks full of money in…

A 5% tax levied on everywhere to a lamborghini subsidy policy is regressive. It is important to look at both sides of the equation to make a conclusion. Thats why you can have a flat tax, and a progressive government by spending for the poorer and levying flat. In fact, a flat tax is probably progressive simply because the rich dont use a multitude of public services the average poor does, like schooling, or healthca…

Regressive is not the opposite of Progressive in tax politics. You may be confusing "conservative" here?

The commonly accepted denotation:

> (of a tax) taking a proportionally greater amount from those on lower incomes

Has absolutely nothing to do with spending, but on how much proportionally you are taking.

Re: IRS’ 60-Year-Old IT System Failed on Tax Day Due to New Hardware

#80

Post by s2g » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 7:45 PM UTC

johnklos wrote: post #18

Something that the kids of IT today will never learn: Never replace anything unless the thing doing the replacing is better than the thing being replaced. The IRS' IT "upgrade" is just a huge money grab. Nobody has the slightest interest or desire to do anything properly - they simply want in on that lucrative IRS money. It's like the saying: "Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no ac…

> Something that the kids of IT today will never learn

Why, because you're busy being condescending to teach?

Software should be considered a system that needs ongoing care and maintenance, just like anything else.