A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit • Hacker News Board

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#91

Post by zaroth » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 4:12 PM UTC

ijin wrote: post #64

henriquemaia wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure if I should admire or condone this kind of attitude in a science related context. It makes no difference whatsoever to the whole what you’ve pointed out here. Throughout the video, she states she’s responding to critics. Her whole attitude is of teasing those who accuse her of not knowing what she does (calling her chips fake, etc). When she says that, it’s perfectly clear that she’s being very (and I…

Normally I would agree with you. But these days when anyone can find support for, as well as buy, almost anything on the Internet our freedom to be imprecise and still responsible has unfortunately diminished significantly. That of course doesn't justify a lot of other comments, or attitudes, people have to deal with when wanting to make something.

> our freedom to be imprecise and still responsible has unfortunately diminished significantly

I disagree. The responsibility has and should always remain entirely with the person taking the action. If speaking imprecisely on the Internet is a liability then nobody can speak at all.

Random YouTube maker videos have virtually zero duty of care to their audience.

I say virtually because I could imagine a maliciously crafted video designed to lull a watcher into inadvertently blowing themselves up, but even in the case of a prank video which gives knowingly false/dangerous instructions I’m still not sure of this is something people can or should be held liable for.

If you are handling dangerous chemicals, it is your own personal responsibility to have proper tools, training, and certification to do so safely. Being able to find false information on the internet doesn’t in any way absolve you from the responsibility or shift the blame to someone else.

A moral/legal system which would shift liability to a random YouTube video has a lot of highly undesirable side-effects in terms of stifling free speech, and free exchange of ideas.

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#92

Post by Cerium » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 4:16 PM UTC

ISL wrote: post #12

Awesome. For those considering exploring some of these steps in their own garage -- the chemistry is dangerous, perhaps HF in particular, as it doesn't hurt, it just kills you a few hours later. Can you do this in a garage? Absolutely, but learn everything you need to know from an ensemble of safety-minded mentors before you strike out on your own. It's not just about safety for you, proper disposal of these chemical…

I'm here to second the recommendation to work, volunteer, or take a class at a university. I took a class on MEMS at my university, and for only a few hundred bucks got access to a fully stocked lab with proper training and supervision. It was a good experience I would recommend to anyone interested.

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#93

Post by q3k » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 4:31 PM UTC

Tistel wrote: post #51

There are less dangerous ways to explore "building a CPU from scratch" that hit on the really interesting bits. "Digital Computer Electronics" by Malvino and Brown. You are given logic gates (and, or, nor, nand etc) and build up from there to a working CPU. The articles referenced about HF are terrifying. I am a programmer, but, have worked in a chemistry lap. Its just endless stinky stuff that will kill you in a var…

> The logic of how a CPU works is more interesting.

Maybe for you. I find silicon fabrication to be much more interesting.

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#94

Post by nightbrawler » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 4:38 PM UTC

ISL wrote: post #12

Awesome. For those considering exploring some of these steps in their own garage -- the chemistry is dangerous, perhaps HF in particular, as it doesn't hurt, it just kills you a few hours later. Can you do this in a garage? Absolutely, but learn everything you need to know from an ensemble of safety-minded mentors before you strike out on your own. It's not just about safety for you, proper disposal of these chemical…

For those curious about the HF danger mentioned above, Wikipedia has an interesting (and scary) summary:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid#Health_and_s...

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#95

Post by John_KZ » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 4:47 PM UTC

Lovely, I've always wanted to do something similar.

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#96

Post by ijin » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 4:48 PM UTC

zaroth wrote: post #91

ijin wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Normally I would agree with you. But these days when anyone can find support for, as well as buy, almost anything on the Internet our freedom to be imprecise and still responsible has unfortunately diminished significantly. That of course doesn't justify a lot of other comments, or attitudes, people have to deal with when wanting to make something.

> our freedom to be imprecise and still responsible has unfortunately diminished significantly I disagree. The responsibility has and should always remain entirely with the person taking the action. If speaking imprecisely on the Internet is a liability then nobody can speak at all. Random YouTube maker videos have virtually zero duty of care to their audience. I say virtually because I could imagine a maliciously cr…

It's not really about liability, but whether it's warranted to object. You can say whatever you want, but you can't expect others to not say what they want back unless what you are saying is measured. Objecting to what other people are saying isn't stifling of free speech, it is free speech itself.

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#97

Post by zaroth » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 4:56 PM UTC

ijin wrote: post #96

zaroth wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> our freedom to be imprecise and still responsible has unfortunately diminished significantly I disagree. The responsibility has and should always remain entirely with the person taking the action. If speaking imprecisely on the Internet is a liability then nobody can speak at all. Random YouTube maker videos have virtually zero duty of care to their audience. I say virtually because I could imagine a maliciously cr…

It's not really about liability, but whether it's warranted to object. You can say whatever you want, but you can't expect others to not say what they want back unless what you are saying is measured. Objecting to what other people are saying isn't stifling of free speech, it is free speech itself.

Yes, certainly, no one should expect anything they say or write to be beyond reproach or free from criticism. That’s very different from saying they shouldn’t be free to say it in the first place, which is how I (mis-)perceived your initial comment.

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#98

Post by msla » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 5:04 PM UTC

Itsdijital wrote: post #21

ISL wrote: post #12

Awesome. For those considering exploring some of these steps in their own garage -- the chemistry is dangerous, perhaps HF in particular, as it doesn't hurt, it just kills you a few hours later. Can you do this in a garage? Absolutely, but learn everything you need to know from an ensemble of safety-minded mentors before you strike out on your own. It's not just about safety for you, proper disposal of these chemical…

Good 'ole HF http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2004/03/03/thi...

Oh, yeah. I knew someone would get around to linking to Derek Lowe and his inimitable "Things I Won't Work With" series. His best-known entry in that series, about chlorine triflouride, also has mention of HF and semiconductors:

http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2008/02/26/san...

> The compound also a stronger oxidizing agent than oxygen itself, which also puts it into rare territory. That means that it can potentially go on to “burn” things that you would normally consider already burnt to hell and gone, and a practical consequence of that is that it’ll start roaring reactions with things like bricks and asbestos tile. It’s been used in the semiconductor industry to clean oxides off of surfaces, at which activity it no doubt excels.

> There’s a report from the early 1950s (in this PDF) of a one-ton spill of the stuff. It burned its way through a foot of concrete floor and chewed up another meter of sand and gravel beneath, completing a day that I’m sure no one involved ever forgot. That process, I should add, would necessarily have been accompanied by copious amounts of horribly toxic and corrosive by-products: it’s bad enough when your reagent ignites wet sand, but the clouds of hot hydrofluoric acid are your special door prize if you’re foolhardy enough to hang around and watch the fireworks

Here's a video of some French people introducing the substance to things like a rubber glove and leather:

http://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2013/04/05/chl...

TL;DW: FIRE!

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#99

Post by kurthr » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 5:18 PM UTC

sevensor wrote: post #65

sevensor wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to work in a fab. As far as I know, there's no acceptable way to remove native oxide without HF. We do have another etch process -- dry etch -- that uses plasma instead, but it causes surface damage, and you don't want that under the gate. Also, dry etch chambers are a lot more work to maintain than a fume hood where you do wet etch. Furthermore, dry etch has its own set of hazards, and you have to deal with a…

Thinking a little more outside the box, you might look into using germanium instead of silicon. I don't know much about the germanium system, except that it supposedly grows less oxide. You're still going to have to deposit and remove oxide somehow, though, which means CVD reactors and silane. It's not going to be easy to get away from explosive toxic gases and dirty processes.

Not to mention DiBorane and Arsene... 1000C anneal cycles, teratogenic photoresist ethers, UHV equipment, and muti-kW RF sources. It's possible to demonstrate um scale MOS with a small lab, but not safely in anything resembling a normal garage. Hoping to replicate a multi-$B process at home is a fool's errand.

Re: A home-made lithographically-fabricated integrated circuit

#100

Post by crankylinuxuser » Mon, Apr 30, 2018, 5:22 PM UTC

ISL wrote: post #12

Awesome. For those considering exploring some of these steps in their own garage -- the chemistry is dangerous, perhaps HF in particular, as it doesn't hurt, it just kills you a few hours later. Can you do this in a garage? Absolutely, but learn everything you need to know from an ensemble of safety-minded mentors before you strike out on your own. It's not just about safety for you, proper disposal of these chemical…

And I would argue that individuals have the right to commence with research and creation. Science is not 'easy stuff that harms nobody'. The Curies suffered radiological poisoning but furthered chemistry and physics a great deal. I would think that "computer science" has mollified people in thinking that science is painless, harmless venture of fun exploration. Go read up about the countless physicists and chemists who tried to crack fluorine.

If you are a scientist, and not in a sciency-y setting (lab), have a laminated clipboard stating chemical threats, electrical threats, biogenic threats, and particulate threats.

You may end up killing yourself. If you do, you did so in the name of science. Please, don't have others die because you failed to properly notify first responders of a threat.