What a loveley sidecar ad-hominem. I'm sure his religious beliefs had a major impact on the telemetry issue.
Put a Fork in Caddy; It's Done
11–20 of 90 posts
Re: Put a Fork in Caddy; It's Done
#12The original announcement is here: https://caddyserver.com/blog/caddy-0_11-telemetry And forum discussion here: https://caddy.community/t/caddy-0-11-will-have-telemetry-dis... I thought some of the ideas in the "middle ground" section discussing opt-in versus opt-out being the default depending on how you obtained the software were sort of interesting, hadn't heard that compromise suggested before.
Reading that it really feels like he only posed the question for discussion so that he can say that he got input. It doesn't seem like the feedback is going to sway him an inch.
Re: Put a Fork in Caddy; It's Done
#13My thoughts seem controversial, but i don't see the problem with things like this when you're able to opt out. As long as there's some kind of notice somewhere saying that you'll be part of data collection by default.
People should already know this here but it seems they often ignore it: Data collection can be useful for developers so they can see what features are used the most and which are used the least. If there's a nice feature that people aren't using then maybe it should be "promoted" better in documentation for people to find it, optimise functions people are using amongst other things.
Re: Put a Fork in Caddy; It's Done
#14It's amazing the lack of gratefulness some people have for open source devs. Matt Holt, which I don't know nor have ever met, has spend a tremendous amount of time developing Caddy and making it available for free. It's creating a lot of value, regardless of what you think of recent telemetry announcements. And still, apparently, some people will use the slightest disagreement to say that the whole project is garbage…
It's hard to imagine a productive forking discussion taking place on Caddy's forums directly. Certainly not in that announcement.
At any rate having read this article I didn't see anything saying that "the whole project was garbage".
The video (which Matt Holt removed) is also actually worth watching IMO, although I can see why he doesn't want it posted on the forum given its tone.
Re: Put a Fork in Caddy; It's Done
#15Seems the OP lacks objectivity, especially with the religious reference. With that said, I agree that telemetry should not be on by default, but prompted.
Re: Put a Fork in Caddy; It's Done
#16The original announcement is here: https://caddyserver.com/blog/caddy-0_11-telemetry And forum discussion here: https://caddy.community/t/caddy-0-11-will-have-telemetry-dis... I thought some of the ideas in the "middle ground" section discussing opt-in versus opt-out being the default depending on how you obtained the software were sort of interesting, hadn't heard that compromise suggested before.
Skimming through that discussion, it seems like the developer is also somewhat naively optimistic and possibly underinformed regarding how much of his own and his customers/users' effort will be required to comply with the GDPR while gathering this data.
Which of "this data" do you see as relevant under GDPR?
Re: Put a Fork in Caddy; It's Done
#17What a loveley sidecar ad-hominem. I'm sure his religious beliefs had a major impact on the telemetry issue.
not sure what message I should take from the Mormon.org profile...
- Matt is young - Matt is religious
Either of those are enough for me to think more seriously about Matt's ability to make judgements about software.
(haha, HN you guys are jerks sometimes. I don't know how somebody's evident youth or apparent willingness to believe scientific impossibilities wouldn't warrant questions about their judgement, but y'all sure don't like it if I talk about how totally dumb young religious people can often be)
Re: Put a Fork in Caddy; It's Done
#18It's amazing the lack of gratefulness some people have for open source devs. Matt Holt, which I don't know nor have ever met, has spend a tremendous amount of time developing Caddy and making it available for free. It's creating a lot of value, regardless of what you think of recent telemetry announcements. And still, apparently, some people will use the slightest disagreement to say that the whole project is garbage…
Being able to fork in case of disagreements is a feature of open source, not a bug. Some of these forks get re-merged a few years later (see ffmpeg), others don't, but this is not bad at all. The ideal solution would be to build Caddy with flags that disable telemetry, just like Firefox is built for Debian.
Totally! Forks can be great.
Saying "Caddy was supposed to be great" or "This is no longer just a conversation on privacy; this is a hostage situation" is not right. Caddy is great, but Neflabs doesn't agree with the direction it's taking. The solution is not describing the free software's developer as a hostage taker.
The solution, as you said, is forking.
Re: Put a Fork in Caddy; It's Done
#19My thoughts seem controversial, but i don't see the problem with things like this when you're able to opt out. As long as there's some kind of notice somewhere saying that you'll be part of data collection by default. People should already know this here but it seems they often ignore it: Data collection can be useful for developers so they can see what features are used the most and which are used the least. If ther…
I don't have any solid sources backing what I'm saying right now, but based on what I've read and what I know about sales and marketing, the difference between opt-in and opt-out is huge (much bigger than the 3 letter difference :) ).
With opt-in you only reach something like 10% of your users, if you're like, while opt-out is the exact opposite, you reach 80-90%.
This creates massive financial incentives to be sneaky and push opt-out.
And every time this happens for products where there's decent competition, the people doing this lose a chunk of their users...
Re: Put a Fork in Caddy; It's Done
#20It's amazing the lack of gratefulness some people have for open source devs. Matt Holt, which I don't know nor have ever met, has spend a tremendous amount of time developing Caddy and making it available for free. It's creating a lot of value, regardless of what you think of recent telemetry announcements. And still, apparently, some people will use the slightest disagreement to say that the whole project is garbage…
Being able to fork in case of disagreements is a feature of open source, not a bug. Some of these forks get re-merged a few years later (see ffmpeg), others don't, but this is not bad at all. The ideal solution would be to build Caddy with flags that disable telemetry, just like Firefox is built for Debian.
There's a difference between announcing a fork with "we disagree with the following upstream decisions and thus are making this fork that will remove them" and broadcasting widely something along the lines of "I hate this, it's totally unacceptable, it's done, could someone fork it for us?" though, smearing all kind of barely related things into it.