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Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

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Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#81

Post by scarface74 »

sokoloff wrote: post #26
kristianc wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m not middle class but if you are thrifty and can prioritize freedom over needless expenses ie $5 cup of coffee I'm not sure how the $5 cup of coffee became the symbol of financial irresponsibility. An apartment in Midtown NYC runs about $4k a month. LIC is $2.2k. Yet for some reason we blame the coffee.

It started from the "Latte Factor": https://davidbach.com/latte-factor/ I do find it absurd to pay $5+ for a few ounces of hot water poured over ground beans or chopped leaves and placed into a cup with a mermaid on it, so I don't do it. I also don't think it's the root of people's money problems. However it, combined with 19 other small frivolities, is one branch of their problem in a lot of cases. (The branch being…

I disagree. It's not the frivolities that are causing people problems it's "lifestyle inflation". I know my family spends a lot on things that could be considered "frivolous", but I'm very careful about not increasing the fixed expenses - mortgage, car notes, random other debt - that you can't just cut back on at a moments notice.

I have a monthly budget and I have a "minimum budget". The minimum budget is how much it would take to survive a month if I lost my job.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#82

Post by scarface74 »

maxxxxx wrote: post #54
kristianc wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I see a lot of people do drive through. There are no friends involved and they probably can't even enjoy their drink while stuck in traffic. My model doesn't require me prove that every single person makes a perfectly rational economic decision when buying a Starbucks - merely that people derive more than the value of the beans and the water from consuming a Starbucks.

It's fine. People just should be aware that they are spending a substantial amount of money on it. A while ago we looked at my girlfriend's Starbucks receipts and they added up to $1300 a year. That's a nice vacation or a new camera or something else she thinks she can't afford.

But that cup of coffee may bring her a little joy every morning. That vacation is maybe a weeks worth of pleasure? I'm not saying either is right, but it is about priorities.

Because of...reasons...I am having to choose between enjoying time with my wife now and saving more for retirement and retiring a little bit earlier. We have only being married 5 years and now have the flexibility to enjoy our selves more. I'm purposefully making the choice to live for the now. I'm turning down side contracts that people keep trying to throw at me because I really enjoy the now.

We all make choices.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#83

Post by mlevental »

RhysU wrote: post #73
mlevental wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why are people still trying to live in manhattan? yes the trains are starting to really suck i guess but a couple of years ago (when people were still saying this) it took me 30 minutes to get door to door from brooklyn.

Because it's great. Source: UWS

what exactly is great about UWS? i dated a woman who lived in morningside heights. it's just generic nyc things (like everywhere else). only difference between my neighborhood in brooklyn and morningside heights was the average skintone.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#84

Post by mlevental »

kristianc wrote: post #40
mlevental wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why are people still trying to live in manhattan? yes the trains are starting to really suck i guess but a couple of years ago (when people were still saying this) it took me 30 minutes to get door to door from brooklyn.

Parts of Queens and Brooklyn (c.f the parts where it is easy to get the E into Manhattan) are now approaching what rents were in Manhattan a couple of years ago.

basically everything south of williamsburgh and east of parkslope is like 1/4-1/3 of manhattan costs. as i wrote in response to the person living in UWS: the only difference is the average skin tone.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#85

Post by bowlich »

ryandrake wrote: post #22
sanderjd wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are tons of places with great opportunity for that tech worker and non-absurd cost of living. I understand ambitious people wanting to stay in the Bay Area where all the tippy-top jobs are, but there are very good jobs elsewhere. You're just much less likely to become a billionaire or a top executive or a well known name in the industry outside the Bay Area. But again, that isn't a middle class sort of concern.

Living in the Bay Area is not just about access to tippy top tech companies. It's about limiting risk. Say I'm living in Nowhereville, USA, and working for the tech company there. If anything goes wrong, for example, an overall tech downturn, this company hits hard times, or I have a job-ending disagreement with my boss, then getting a new job likely means a 6+ month job search, uprooting my family and moving. I know…

Friends who went the Bay Area route seem to be in a much higher risk situation then those who stuck it out in the Midwest.

You might be able to pick up a new job overnight in the Bay Area, but conversely your employer can replace you overnight in the Bay Area. Friends who went out there are constantly jumping between companies as they run the risk of being laid off, of running into stack ranking, of their firm getting bought out or all other kinds of nonsense.

Midwestern friends? All still working for the same spot they got out of college. Pay might be low, but the stress is low as well since employers know that it's hard work to replace a competent developer (probably have to pay someone to move there). If they walk out, it's the firm that's going to be in a harder place then they will be -- so no one is going to ask them to work overtime, check their e-mails, or do anything to upset their applecart.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#86

Post by mratzloff »

mratzloff wrote: post #10
cimmanom wrote: post #3

Because this article completely misdefines "middle class"? Being middle class doesn't mean you can afford absolutely everything you want. It just means you're financially secure enough not to have to choose between food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare with every paycheck, and to be able to save up a buffer in case of emergency. Example: $2100/mo to feed 3 people is ridiculous. Instead of buying prepared foods, coo…

$2100/mo to feed 3 people is ridiculous. You can feed 3 people on $750/mo. $700/mo/person is $7.65 per meal, which is quite reasonable. $250/mo/person is about $2.70 per meal, which is not. "In 2005, sociologists William Thompson and Joseph Hickey estimate an income range of roughly $35,000 to $75,000 for the lower middle class and $100,000 or more for the upper middle class."[0] In 2018 dollars, that's $44,800 to $9…

To everyone responding, unless you live in a large, coastal city, your family budget is not germane to this discussion. This article is talking about middle class in large, coastal cities.

I live in NYC. Try eating less than $3/meal for a month here. Groceries cost more here. I eat at home for most meals, too.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#87

Post by extra88 »

geggam wrote: post #72
froindt wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't mind sharing, what were some of the biggest expenses you had leading to you living paycheck to paycheck? I'm a Midwest non-tech worker. I live in one of the 5 largest cities in my state. It's very foreign to me that such a large income wouldn't allow you to feel financially secure. A starting engineering salary in the area is ~65,000. 1, 2, and 3 bedroom apartments in my complex are $830, $1200, and $150…

200k == about 11600 take home a month after taxes and insurance Monthly Rent : 3300 ( east bay 45 minute train ride into SF) Utlities : 350 BART riding : 260 BART parking : 60-100 or Drive to SF and Car parking $500 ( instead of the 360 BART ) Groceries : 1400 ( 2 teenage boys eat ) Car payments + insurance : 800 ( 2 cars ) renters insurance : 120 Clothing : 300 ( teenagers outgrow stuff fast ) Cell phones : 300 6930…

Having 40% of your take-home pay after covering essentials is not living paycheck-to-paycheck.

But it's also true that if you're starting with nothing, saving for a down payment in such a housing market is unattainable.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#89

Post by [deleted] »

cimmanom wrote: post #3

Because this article completely misdefines "middle class"? Being middle class doesn't mean you can afford absolutely everything you want. It just means you're financially secure enough not to have to choose between food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare with every paycheck, and to be able to save up a buffer in case of emergency. Example: $2100/mo to feed 3 people is ridiculous. Instead of buying prepared foods, coo…

[deleted]

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#90

Post by rickyc091 »

mratzloff wrote: post #86
mratzloff wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

$2100/mo to feed 3 people is ridiculous. You can feed 3 people on $750/mo. $700/mo/person is $7.65 per meal, which is quite reasonable. $250/mo/person is about $2.70 per meal, which is not. "In 2005, sociologists William Thompson and Joseph Hickey estimate an income range of roughly $35,000 to $75,000 for the lower middle class and $100,000 or more for the upper middle class."[0] In 2018 dollars, that's $44,800 to $9…

To everyone responding, unless you live in a large, coastal city, your family budget is not germane to this discussion. This article is talking about middle class in large, coastal cities. I live in NYC. Try eating less than $3/meal for a month here. Groceries cost more here. I eat at home for most meals, too.

It's definitely possible! Cost of groceries in the outer boroughs will be cheaper, but I'll use Manhattan prices. Shopping at Trader Joes + Chinatown will significantly lower costs. Fairway isn't terrible, but if you're shopping at the local market, it's super expensive. Whole Foods is insanely priced.

Breakfast will be your cheapest meal, eggs $3/dozen. Yogurt 99c each or get a larger container to save more money. Oatmeal, bananas. Bacon will be pricey, but let's splurge $6. Avocado, toast is relatively cheap.

Lunch, chicken breast, thighs whatever. You can get them for $5-6/lb and even less at Chinatown. That'll go for lunch/dinner. Toss in salad, rice, etc. Canned veggies like chickpeas and beans are just a buck each at Whole Foods. Ground beef is pretty cheap. Veggies like kale, broccoli are a bit more expensive, but again, only a few bucks and you can use it for multiple meals.

Grocery might cost more, but definitely possible to churn out meals at $3 price points. Of course there's the upfront cost of having basic things like salt, pepper, oil, spices, butter, etc.

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