Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle • Hacker News Board

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#71

Post by lifeisstillgood » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 4:05 PM UTC

cimmanom wrote: post #3

Because this article completely misdefines "middle class"? Being middle class doesn't mean you can afford absolutely everything you want. It just means you're financially secure enough not to have to choose between food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare with every paycheck, and to be able to save up a buffer in case of emergency. Example: $2100/mo to feed 3 people is ridiculous. Instead of buying prepared foods, coo…

i would say working class means "not having to choose between health, clothes food and rent". in fact not having enough to cover those is a pretty good definition of poverty.

I do agree that 300/dinner and so on is choosing an expensive middle class lifestyle. But the authors argument stands - a "decent" lifestyle (non poverty) and a "middle class" lifestyle have all got more expensive without us noticing - and pay has not kept pace.

Personally I think there is something wrong with inflation measures. I should do some research but the annual 2% target or whatever is missing a lot - we should be referencing weighted decade long averages or something.

for example I found an old pub prices menu from my year of birth - a pint of well know brnad lager was 5pence. It is now heading for 5 pounds in similar outlets - that's a 100x inflation leap in my lifetime.

if inflation at 4% was shown as double the price by the time your kids reach college then it might have more "real" impact

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#72

Post by geggam » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 4:55 PM UTC

froindt wrote: post #56

geggam wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a family of 4 who just left the SF Bay area making what you call secure. I can assure you we did not feel secure and were living paycheck to paycheck on that amount.

If you don't mind sharing, what were some of the biggest expenses you had leading to you living paycheck to paycheck? I'm a Midwest non-tech worker. I live in one of the 5 largest cities in my state. It's very foreign to me that such a large income wouldn't allow you to feel financially secure. A starting engineering salary in the area is ~65,000. 1, 2, and 3 bedroom apartments in my complex are $830, $1200, and $150…

200k == about 11600 take home a month after taxes and insurance

Monthly Rent : 3300 ( east bay 45 minute train ride into SF)

Utlities : 350

BART riding : 260

BART parking : 60-100

or Drive to SF and Car parking $500 ( instead of the 360 BART )

Groceries : 1400 ( 2 teenage boys eat )

Car payments + insurance : 800 ( 2 cars )

renters insurance : 120

Clothing : 300 ( teenagers outgrow stuff fast )

Cell phones : 300

6930 so far... no savings, vacations, entertainment or misc taken out

4670/4 = 1167 per person a month / 4 is 291 a week per person left for savings vacation misc and entertainment

1 family outing in the bay will run $300 to $ 500 easily

BTW to buy a house you typically had to come in with an offer 10-25% over ask and typically a full cash offer would get the house. Good luck buying a house with a mortgage ( the house across the street, in the east bay, went for 699k and it was only 900 sq ft )

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#73

Post by RhysU » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 5:10 PM UTC

mlevental wrote: post #28

kristianc wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m not middle class but if you are thrifty and can prioritize freedom over needless expenses ie $5 cup of coffee I'm not sure how the $5 cup of coffee became the symbol of financial irresponsibility. An apartment in Midtown NYC runs about $4k a month. LIC is $2.2k. Yet for some reason we blame the coffee.

why are people still trying to live in manhattan? yes the trains are starting to really suck i guess but a couple of years ago (when people were still saying this) it took me 30 minutes to get door to door from brooklyn.

Because it's great. Source: UWS

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#74

Post by RhysU » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 5:14 PM UTC

> Yes, their total tax bill is ~$17,000 more a year than today’s median household income...

Glad to see the author pointed this out. Regardless of what you think of his budget, this basic taxation fact remains true.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#75

Post by DougN7 » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 5:45 PM UTC

sethammons wrote: post #42

cimmanom wrote: post #3

Because this article completely misdefines "middle class"? Being middle class doesn't mean you can afford absolutely everything you want. It just means you're financially secure enough not to have to choose between food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare with every paycheck, and to be able to save up a buffer in case of emergency. Example: $2100/mo to feed 3 people is ridiculous. Instead of buying prepared foods, coo…

I don't know how to spend that little on food. We have a family of five (and sometimes cousins or neighborhood kids are over and playing and snacking on fruit and such) and $2k+ a month for groceries is normal. Practically every meal is home cooked. We might get take out once every couple weeks or go out to eat once a month, which is on top of that $2k. We could cut that cost in half with processed foods and a pasta…

That really surprises me. We are also a family of 5. Because of diet issues we even buy a handful of organic items (primarily dairy), and we easily spend less than $1500/mo on food. Oh, and I’d say our diet is above average as far as health, though it could be better. Most meals are home made.

Could it matter where we live? I’m near a big city in the midwest.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#76

Post by eganist » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 5:48 PM UTC

DougN7 wrote: post #75

sethammons wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know how to spend that little on food. We have a family of five (and sometimes cousins or neighborhood kids are over and playing and snacking on fruit and such) and $2k+ a month for groceries is normal. Practically every meal is home cooked. We might get take out once every couple weeks or go out to eat once a month, which is on top of that $2k. We could cut that cost in half with processed foods and a pasta…

That really surprises me. We are also a family of 5. Because of diet issues we even buy a handful of organic items (primarily dairy), and we easily spend less than $1500/mo on food. Oh, and I’d say our diet is above average as far as health, though it could be better. Most meals are home made. Could it matter where we live? I’m near a big city in the midwest.

Seth's linkedin page puts him in Orange County, so I'd not be surprised if his cost of living is easily 30% higher than yours.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#77

Post by DougN7 » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 5:51 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #22

sanderjd wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are tons of places with great opportunity for that tech worker and non-absurd cost of living. I understand ambitious people wanting to stay in the Bay Area where all the tippy-top jobs are, but there are very good jobs elsewhere. You're just much less likely to become a billionaire or a top executive or a well known name in the industry outside the Bay Area. But again, that isn't a middle class sort of concern.

Living in the Bay Area is not just about access to tippy top tech companies. It's about limiting risk. Say I'm living in Nowhereville, USA, and working for the tech company there. If anything goes wrong, for example, an overall tech downturn, this company hits hard times, or I have a job-ending disagreement with my boss, then getting a new job likely means a 6+ month job search, uprooting my family and moving. I know…

I think there are so many misconceptions about the rest of the country’s tech scene. I’ve been in tech for almost 30 years now. The only time I lived on the coast was in Portland Oregon. More often in the midwest. There are tech jobs, that pay very well compared to the cost of living, everywhere. I’ve never been out of work for more than two weeks.

Stay near one of the top 100 cities in the country and there are almost no issues with employment if you keep your skills somewhat updated.

Edit: I should mention I, and all my co-workers, also don’t work remote. Turns out companies everywhere use technology :)

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#78

Post by e15ctr0n » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 6:26 PM UTC

geggam wrote: post #72

froindt wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't mind sharing, what were some of the biggest expenses you had leading to you living paycheck to paycheck? I'm a Midwest non-tech worker. I live in one of the 5 largest cities in my state. It's very foreign to me that such a large income wouldn't allow you to feel financially secure. A starting engineering salary in the area is ~65,000. 1, 2, and 3 bedroom apartments in my complex are $830, $1200, and $150…

200k == about 11600 take home a month after taxes and insurance Monthly Rent : 3300 ( east bay 45 minute train ride into SF) Utlities : 350 BART riding : 260 BART parking : 60-100 or Drive to SF and Car parking $500 ( instead of the 360 BART ) Groceries : 1400 ( 2 teenage boys eat ) Car payments + insurance : 800 ( 2 cars ) renters insurance : 120 Clothing : 300 ( teenagers outgrow stuff fast ) Cell phones : 300 6930…

> 'renters insurance : 120'

Do you really pay $120 per month for renter's insurance? To be honest, this sounds more like an annual number.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#79

Post by scarface74 » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 7:23 PM UTC

How can anyone pay any attention to yet another west coaster who lives in a bubble?

https://dqydj.com/income-percentile-calculator/

If you make $300,000 a year in household income, you are making more than 98.9% of households in the US.

Our household income is a little more than half that, we live in a major metropolitan city, have a 5 bedroom 3-1/2 bath house in one of the affluent counties in the country that was brand new build in 2016 that costs $320k. Our mortgage is around $2000 a month.

We aren't able to max out both of our 401Ks right now, but I do max out mine and my wife works in the education system with a pension.

We are a family of 3 and our grocery build is around $800 a month.

We explicitly decided not to save for college. We are in a state that has practically free tuition to any public college as long as you maintain a 3.2(?) GPA. If our child can't keep that GPA in high school, why would we pay a lot of money for him to go to an expensive college? We can afford to pay tuition for four years out of pocket for him to go to a public two year college his first two years and then transfer.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#80

Post by scarface74 » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 7:32 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #22

sanderjd wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are tons of places with great opportunity for that tech worker and non-absurd cost of living. I understand ambitious people wanting to stay in the Bay Area where all the tippy-top jobs are, but there are very good jobs elsewhere. You're just much less likely to become a billionaire or a top executive or a well known name in the industry outside the Bay Area. But again, that isn't a middle class sort of concern.

Living in the Bay Area is not just about access to tippy top tech companies. It's about limiting risk. Say I'm living in Nowhereville, USA, and working for the tech company there. If anything goes wrong, for example, an overall tech downturn, this company hits hard times, or I have a job-ending disagreement with my boss, then getting a new job likely means a 6+ month job search, uprooting my family and moving. I know…

I've lived in Atlanta GA for over 20 years. During that time it has never taken me more than 3 weeks to find a job once I started looking - always paying more.

In 2012, I walked out on a contract job on Monday during lunch (long story), called a recruiter and I had a job offer with what was then a Fortune 10 company by Thursday evening making 10K more.

In late 2014, I called recruiters and had two job offers making 25K more.

Earlier this year, it took 10 days and now I'm making yet another 20K more.

I'm no special snowflake. I'm still just making the median salary for Atlanta, a lot of my former coworkers can tell a similar story.

When I'm looking for a job, usually I'm juggling between 5-10 opportunities. I always use recruiters, so I am not blindly submitting resumes.