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Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

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Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#51

Post by chomp »

sethammons wrote: post #19

I think the key here was costal living in economic hubs. I was looking a little while back to see if I should move closer to work to reduce my super commute. For the same price as a stucco 1000sqft house with near zero yard, bars on the windows, graffiti on the building with a homeless person sleeping on the sidewalk, and being right next to the freeway, you can pick up a house literally 3 to 6x larger on 10 acres in…

Yes but I live in Houston which is coastal, and I guarantee you can live like a king on much less than this. I have a 3k SQ ft home that I'm paying $1500/mo on, and that includes interest and escrowed taxes.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#52

Post by havetocharge »

cimmanom wrote: post #23
ianai wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not wrong. But you’re also attributing choice to things that may not be choice. In your description, if a tech worker wants a cheaper lifestyle and larger living space then they should move away from basically the only places they can find those highest paying careers. There are exceptions, but they are not numerous enough to dismiss that current prices exceed many explanations and leave many people wanting. A…

Sure, (I live in ultra-expensive NYC because of economic opportunity) but you can still a) compromise on the type/size/cost of housing you choose within the city; b) carpool or commute by bike or transit if you're concerned about the environment; and c) cut back on the other expenses that the hypothetical family in the article is being anything but frugal about.

This is a great point. It's easy to just classify NYC as expensive, but the truth is that there's a great deal of range in living costs in NYC area, including outside of the strict definition of NYC proper, while still maintaining reasonable commute times.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#53

Post by cimmanom »

kristianc wrote: post #36
sokoloff wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It started from the "Latte Factor": https://davidbach.com/latte-factor/ I do find it absurd to pay $5+ for a few ounces of hot water poured over ground beans or chopped leaves and placed into a cup with a mermaid on it, so I don't do it. I also don't think it's the root of people's money problems. However it, combined with 19 other small frivolities, is one branch of their problem in a lot of cases. (The branch being…

Sure - but you're confusing what people are actually paying for when they buy a Starbucks. When people buy Starbucks, they're buying 15 minutes of time to sit in a warm cafe with friends, free WiFi, a space to work, and the labour involved in having to make the coffee for themselves. I'm still not sure it amounts to an argument why the $150 a month people would save on coffee are the root of people's money problems,…

Wait, are you really asking why people should give up unnecessary expenses if they're spending so much on them that they can't afford rent?

No, $150/mo won't get you a place to live in NYC; but 10 $150/mo habits sure will.

And maybe that single $150/mo habit is the difference between "there's literally no room in this city available to rent for $650/mo" and "I have a place to lay my head for $800/mo".

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#54

Post by maxxxxx »

kristianc wrote: post #50
maxxxxx wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"When people buy Starbucks, they're buying 15 minutes of time to sit in a warm cafe with friends, free WiFi, a space to work, and the labour involved in having to make the coffee for themselves." I see a lot of people do drive through. There are no friends involved and they probably can't even enjoy their drink while stuck in traffic.

> I see a lot of people do drive through. There are no friends involved and they probably can't even enjoy their drink while stuck in traffic. My model doesn't require me prove that every single person makes a perfectly rational economic decision when buying a Starbucks - merely that people derive more than the value of the beans and the water from consuming a Starbucks.

It's fine. People just should be aware that they are spending a substantial amount of money on it. A while ago we looked at my girlfriend's Starbucks receipts and they added up to $1300 a year. That's a nice vacation or a new camera or something else she thinks she can't afford.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#55

Post by hacknat »

cimmanom wrote: post #3

Because this article completely misdefines "middle class"? Being middle class doesn't mean you can afford absolutely everything you want. It just means you're financially secure enough not to have to choose between food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare with every paycheck, and to be able to save up a buffer in case of emergency. Example: $2100/mo to feed 3 people is ridiculous. Instead of buying prepared foods, coo…

I disagree. First of all I don’t think any organization, including the Census Bereau, Pew, Gallup, et al have some kind of official definition of what “middle class” is. Second, by and large most Americans seem to identify themselves as being Middle class+. I think Middle Class is strongly associated with the American dream, and typically benefits like a vacation once a year, retirement, a home, and sending your kids to College are all mentioned as being a package deal of being Middle class.

I think the biggest 2 things that have happened that requires people to have a lot more money to be part of this “dream” is the complete dissapearance of the Pension and the dramatic increase in the cost of College tuition (in the 60s-90s, sending your kid to College meant supporting them a few more years, tuition wasn’t even really a factor). The Pension being lost is a double hit, because you lost the guaranteed retirement safety net, and you have to now save a huge portion of your own paycheck to make up the difference.

+http://news.gallup.com/poll/212660/middle-class-identificati...

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#56

Post by froindt »

geggam wrote: post #14
jslsfsafas wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

300 k is ridiculous, but in the coastal regions I would not be surprised if a family of 4 needs 200-250 to feel financially secure.

As a family of 4 who just left the SF Bay area making what you call secure. I can assure you we did not feel secure and were living paycheck to paycheck on that amount.

If you don't mind sharing, what were some of the biggest expenses you had leading to you living paycheck to paycheck?

I'm a Midwest non-tech worker. I live in one of the 5 largest cities in my state. It's very foreign to me that such a large income wouldn't allow you to feel financially secure.

A starting engineering salary in the area is ~65,000. 1, 2, and 3 bedroom apartments in my complex are $830, $1200, and $1500 respectively. I'm ~2.5 miles from work (7 minute commute via car) and <0.5 miles from a grocery store. Houses in the area with a really good school system are 200-400k typically.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#59

Post by hacknat »

trustno1 wrote: post #41
ryandrake wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Living in the Bay Area is not just about access to tippy top tech companies. It's about limiting risk. Say I'm living in Nowhereville, USA, and working for the tech company there. If anything goes wrong, for example, an overall tech downturn, this company hits hard times, or I have a job-ending disagreement with my boss, then getting a new job likely means a 6+ month job search, uprooting my family and moving. I know…

Ah, more elitism from the Valley folk. If you were to leave your bubble for a bit, you’d find any significant urban area offers the same benefit: Chicago, NYC, Boston, etc.

With about the same cost of living. I don’t think he was referencing those cities when he said “Nowhereville”.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#60

Post by geggam »

chomp wrote: post #51
sethammons wrote: post #19

I think the key here was costal living in economic hubs. I was looking a little while back to see if I should move closer to work to reduce my super commute. For the same price as a stucco 1000sqft house with near zero yard, bars on the windows, graffiti on the building with a homeless person sleeping on the sidewalk, and being right next to the freeway, you can pick up a house literally 3 to 6x larger on 10 acres in…

Yes but I live in Houston which is coastal, and I guarantee you can live like a king on much less than this. I have a 3k SQ ft home that I'm paying $1500/mo on, and that includes interest and escrowed taxes.

but can you make that in houston ?
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