Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle • Hacker News Board

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#41

Post by trustno1 » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 3:00 PM UTC

ryandrake wrote: post #22

sanderjd wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are tons of places with great opportunity for that tech worker and non-absurd cost of living. I understand ambitious people wanting to stay in the Bay Area where all the tippy-top jobs are, but there are very good jobs elsewhere. You're just much less likely to become a billionaire or a top executive or a well known name in the industry outside the Bay Area. But again, that isn't a middle class sort of concern.

Living in the Bay Area is not just about access to tippy top tech companies. It's about limiting risk. Say I'm living in Nowhereville, USA, and working for the tech company there. If anything goes wrong, for example, an overall tech downturn, this company hits hard times, or I have a job-ending disagreement with my boss, then getting a new job likely means a 6+ month job search, uprooting my family and moving. I know…

Ah, more elitism from the Valley folk. If you were to leave your bubble for a bit, you’d find any significant urban area offers the same benefit: Chicago, NYC, Boston, etc.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#42

Post by sethammons » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 3:00 PM UTC

cimmanom wrote: post #3

Because this article completely misdefines "middle class"? Being middle class doesn't mean you can afford absolutely everything you want. It just means you're financially secure enough not to have to choose between food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare with every paycheck, and to be able to save up a buffer in case of emergency. Example: $2100/mo to feed 3 people is ridiculous. Instead of buying prepared foods, coo…

I don't know how to spend that little on food. We have a family of five (and sometimes cousins or neighborhood kids are over and playing and snacking on fruit and such) and $2k+ a month for groceries is normal. Practically every meal is home cooked. We might get take out once every couple weeks or go out to eat once a month, which is on top of that $2k. We could cut that cost in half with processed foods and a pasta heavy diet maybe, but we want to eat healthy.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#43

Post by hpcjoe » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 3:01 PM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #26

kristianc wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m not middle class but if you are thrifty and can prioritize freedom over needless expenses ie $5 cup of coffee I'm not sure how the $5 cup of coffee became the symbol of financial irresponsibility. An apartment in Midtown NYC runs about $4k a month. LIC is $2.2k. Yet for some reason we blame the coffee.

It started from the "Latte Factor": https://davidbach.com/latte-factor/ I do find it absurd to pay $5+ for a few ounces of hot water poured over ground beans or chopped leaves and placed into a cup with a mermaid on it, so I don't do it. I also don't think it's the root of people's money problems. However it, combined with 19 other small frivolities, is one branch of their problem in a lot of cases. (The branch being…

Economic death by a hundred lattes per month.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#44

Post by ineedasername » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 3:02 PM UTC

mratzloff wrote: post #10

cimmanom wrote: post #3

Because this article completely misdefines "middle class"? Being middle class doesn't mean you can afford absolutely everything you want. It just means you're financially secure enough not to have to choose between food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare with every paycheck, and to be able to save up a buffer in case of emergency. Example: $2100/mo to feed 3 people is ridiculous. Instead of buying prepared foods, coo…

$2100/mo to feed 3 people is ridiculous. You can feed 3 people on $750/mo. $700/mo/person is $7.65 per meal, which is quite reasonable. $250/mo/person is about $2.70 per meal, which is not. "In 2005, sociologists William Thompson and Joseph Hickey estimate an income range of roughly $35,000 to $75,000 for the lower middle class and $100,000 or more for the upper middle class."[0] In 2018 dollars, that's $44,800 to $9…

I cook a lot. My food budget for 4 people is about 1000/month. My cost for something like tossed vegetables tossed with pasta, chicken breast, and a cream sauce is under $2 per meal. Most meals are similarly priced. These $700/person monthly estimates are crazy

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#45

Post by maxxxxx » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 3:02 PM UTC

kristianc wrote: post #36

sokoloff wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It started from the "Latte Factor": https://davidbach.com/latte-factor/ I do find it absurd to pay $5+ for a few ounces of hot water poured over ground beans or chopped leaves and placed into a cup with a mermaid on it, so I don't do it. I also don't think it's the root of people's money problems. However it, combined with 19 other small frivolities, is one branch of their problem in a lot of cases. (The branch being…

Sure - but you're confusing what people are actually paying for when they buy a Starbucks. When people buy Starbucks, they're buying 15 minutes of time to sit in a warm cafe with friends, free WiFi, a space to work, and the labour involved in having to make the coffee for themselves. I'm still not sure it amounts to an argument why the $150 a month people would save on coffee are the root of people's money problems,…

"When people buy Starbucks, they're buying 15 minutes of time to sit in a warm cafe with friends, free WiFi, a space to work, and the labour involved in having to make the coffee for themselves."

I see a lot of people do drive through. There are no friends involved and they probably can't even enjoy their drink while stuck in traffic.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#46

Post by ohiovr » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 3:04 PM UTC

kristianc wrote: post #12

ohiovr wrote: post #2

I’m not middle class but if you are thrifty and can prioritize freedom over needless expenses ie $5 cup of coffee it isn’t hard to live very comfortably in many parts of the usa. I understand owning property at all can be much more challenging in europe than it is in much of the usa mainland. Coastland and island living is going to be more expensive for various reasons.

> I’m not middle class but if you are thrifty and can prioritize freedom over needless expenses ie $5 cup of coffee I'm not sure how the $5 cup of coffee became the symbol of financial irresponsibility. An apartment in Midtown NYC runs about $4k a month. LIC is $2.2k. Yet for some reason we blame the coffee.

Well you don't need to pay 90 dollars for a cell phone service or 120 for cable, or spend as redonculous 2100 for food either. Do you really have to eat prime beef tenderloin steak every day?

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#47

Post by randomdata » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 3:04 PM UTC

cimmanom wrote: post #3

Because this article completely misdefines "middle class"? Being middle class doesn't mean you can afford absolutely everything you want. It just means you're financially secure enough not to have to choose between food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare with every paycheck, and to be able to save up a buffer in case of emergency. Example: $2100/mo to feed 3 people is ridiculous. Instead of buying prepared foods, coo…

> It just means you're financially secure enough not to have to choose between food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare with every paycheck, and to be able to save up a buffer in case of emergency.

I would say that more accurately it means that a portion of your income is made passively (which that buffer provides) alongside having a working income. The working-class, as the name implies, make all of their income by working, and the upper-class make all of their income passively.

But the fun thing about middle-class is that it has no generally accepted definition, so it can mean whatever you want it to.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#48

Post by vlan0 » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 3:04 PM UTC

germinalphrase wrote: post #18

kristianc wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’m not middle class but if you are thrifty and can prioritize freedom over needless expenses ie $5 cup of coffee I'm not sure how the $5 cup of coffee became the symbol of financial irresponsibility. An apartment in Midtown NYC runs about $4k a month. LIC is $2.2k. Yet for some reason we blame the coffee.

Probably a carryover from the time where upscale coffee was relatively new to the urban cores and developed some social status, but before you could buy decent coffee almost anywhere in the country (90's to early 2000's?) It was a clearly frivolous pleasure. Neee caffeine? Folgers is cheap.

$5 is definitely a lot of cash for a cup of actual coffee.

I can purchase local freshly roasted single origin coffee at $17 for 12oz and still come out way ahead of $5 per cup. Of course you need coffee gear, but that's paid for itself over the last five years.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#49

Post by ajmurmann » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 3:05 PM UTC

tsunamifury wrote: post #8

I think we should come up for a new term for working high income households, something like a "City class". They make between 250-699k. They have mostly what they need but work very hard and aren't the leisure or power class that is associated with the upper. They don't have or really identify with the same money problems as the true middle class but they certainly don't have enough to spend frivioisly. They give up…

I think the real issue for it national debate is that the economy in different places has drifted apart so much. On one hand we have people in big cities making $300k+ and just living a normal life and we have parts of the South apparently being in a comparable living situation to the third world according to the UN. Yet we talk about it as if it's all the same. It's especially problematic for things like federal taxes.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#50

Post by kristianc » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 3:06 PM UTC

maxxxxx wrote: post #45

kristianc wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure - but you're confusing what people are actually paying for when they buy a Starbucks. When people buy Starbucks, they're buying 15 minutes of time to sit in a warm cafe with friends, free WiFi, a space to work, and the labour involved in having to make the coffee for themselves. I'm still not sure it amounts to an argument why the $150 a month people would save on coffee are the root of people's money problems,…

"When people buy Starbucks, they're buying 15 minutes of time to sit in a warm cafe with friends, free WiFi, a space to work, and the labour involved in having to make the coffee for themselves." I see a lot of people do drive through. There are no friends involved and they probably can't even enjoy their drink while stuck in traffic.

> I see a lot of people do drive through. There are no friends involved and they probably can't even enjoy their drink while stuck in traffic.

My model doesn't require me prove that every single person makes a perfectly rational economic decision when buying a Starbucks - merely that people derive more than the value of the beans and the water from consuming a Starbucks.