Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle • Hacker News Board

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#21

Post by ajmurmann » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 2:51 PM UTC

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #11

Middle-class is such a meaningless term now. US median household income is about $60K, that is the middle of the income distribution.

I think taking about financials in general terms for a place as large and as diverse as the US is a mood exercise. As the article describes the same amount of money means very different things in different parts of the US. Defining middle class by looking at the median household income is entirely meaningless for all the reasons the article describes. Many people here also have the instinct to immediately suggest to move to a place that's meant to be flown over because cost of living is lower there. The issue is that both cost and income scale to a large degree proportionally to each other. This article likely could have been titled "why middle class life now cost $40k" and be about personal finance in Baton Rouge. The real news is that $300k on one place are the equivalent of $40k in another.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#22

Post by ryandrake » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 2:51 PM UTC

sanderjd wrote: post #15

ianai wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not wrong. But you’re also attributing choice to things that may not be choice. In your description, if a tech worker wants a cheaper lifestyle and larger living space then they should move away from basically the only places they can find those highest paying careers. There are exceptions, but they are not numerous enough to dismiss that current prices exceed many explanations and leave many people wanting. A…

There are tons of places with great opportunity for that tech worker and non-absurd cost of living. I understand ambitious people wanting to stay in the Bay Area where all the tippy-top jobs are, but there are very good jobs elsewhere. You're just much less likely to become a billionaire or a top executive or a well known name in the industry outside the Bay Area. But again, that isn't a middle class sort of concern.

Living in the Bay Area is not just about access to tippy top tech companies. It's about limiting risk.

Say I'm living in Nowhereville, USA, and working for the tech company there. If anything goes wrong, for example, an overall tech downturn, this company hits hard times, or I have a job-ending disagreement with my boss, then getting a new job likely means a 6+ month job search, uprooting my family and moving. I know this is true because I have lived in several towns like this. It sucks.

In the Bay Area, if things don't work out with a particular company, I can apply to hundreds of others next door. I'm in for a 3-6 month job search, and at the end of the day I don't have the hassle of moving to a different city.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#23

Post by cimmanom » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 2:51 PM UTC

ianai wrote: post #6

cimmanom wrote: post #3

Because this article completely misdefines "middle class"? Being middle class doesn't mean you can afford absolutely everything you want. It just means you're financially secure enough not to have to choose between food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare with every paycheck, and to be able to save up a buffer in case of emergency. Example: $2100/mo to feed 3 people is ridiculous. Instead of buying prepared foods, coo…

You’re not wrong. But you’re also attributing choice to things that may not be choice. In your description, if a tech worker wants a cheaper lifestyle and larger living space then they should move away from basically the only places they can find those highest paying careers. There are exceptions, but they are not numerous enough to dismiss that current prices exceed many explanations and leave many people wanting. A…

Sure, (I live in ultra-expensive NYC because of economic opportunity) but you can still a) compromise on the type/size/cost of housing you choose within the city; b) carpool or commute by bike or transit if you're concerned about the environment; and c) cut back on the other expenses that the hypothetical family in the article is being anything but frugal about.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#24

Post by dvdhnt » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 2:51 PM UTC

mratzloff wrote: post #10

cimmanom wrote: post #3

Because this article completely misdefines "middle class"? Being middle class doesn't mean you can afford absolutely everything you want. It just means you're financially secure enough not to have to choose between food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare with every paycheck, and to be able to save up a buffer in case of emergency. Example: $2100/mo to feed 3 people is ridiculous. Instead of buying prepared foods, coo…

$2100/mo to feed 3 people is ridiculous. You can feed 3 people on $750/mo. $700/mo/person is $7.65 per meal, which is quite reasonable. $250/mo/person is about $2.70 per meal, which is not. "In 2005, sociologists William Thompson and Joseph Hickey estimate an income range of roughly $35,000 to $75,000 for the lower middle class and $100,000 or more for the upper middle class."[0] In 2018 dollars, that's $44,800 to $9…

Are you saying $700 per month per person is reasonable? That’s pretty insane if you are, we’re a family of 4 who live a pretty sweet upper middle class life and spend maybe that much each month on our entire family...

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#25

Post by qntty » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 2:52 PM UTC

tsunamifury wrote: post #8

I think we should come up for a new term for working high income households, something like a "City class". They make between 250-699k. They have mostly what they need but work very hard and aren't the leisure or power class that is associated with the upper. They don't have or really identify with the same money problems as the true middle class but they certainly don't have enough to spend frivioisly. They give up…

"Upper middle class"?

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#26

Post by sokoloff » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 2:52 PM UTC

kristianc wrote: post #12

ohiovr wrote: post #2

I’m not middle class but if you are thrifty and can prioritize freedom over needless expenses ie $5 cup of coffee it isn’t hard to live very comfortably in many parts of the usa. I understand owning property at all can be much more challenging in europe than it is in much of the usa mainland. Coastland and island living is going to be more expensive for various reasons.

> I’m not middle class but if you are thrifty and can prioritize freedom over needless expenses ie $5 cup of coffee I'm not sure how the $5 cup of coffee became the symbol of financial irresponsibility. An apartment in Midtown NYC runs about $4k a month. LIC is $2.2k. Yet for some reason we blame the coffee.

It started from the "Latte Factor": https://davidbach.com/latte-factor/

I do find it absurd to pay $5+ for a few ounces of hot water poured over ground beans or chopped leaves and placed into a cup with a mermaid on it, so I don't do it.

I also don't think it's the root of people's money problems. However it, combined with 19 other small frivolities, is one branch of their problem in a lot of cases. (The branch being "unexamined, frequent, persistent leaks in the bucket".)

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#27

Post by kristianc » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 2:52 PM UTC

sanderjd wrote: post #17

kristianc wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not a choice you actually have for many careers.

Which ones?

Politics - DC

Media - New York

Tech for a BigCo - Seattle/Bay Area.

You can of course move to Europe (Visa permitting) but you will find your salary gets much lower too.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#28

Post by mlevental » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 2:53 PM UTC

kristianc wrote: post #12

ohiovr wrote: post #2

I’m not middle class but if you are thrifty and can prioritize freedom over needless expenses ie $5 cup of coffee it isn’t hard to live very comfortably in many parts of the usa. I understand owning property at all can be much more challenging in europe than it is in much of the usa mainland. Coastland and island living is going to be more expensive for various reasons.

> I’m not middle class but if you are thrifty and can prioritize freedom over needless expenses ie $5 cup of coffee I'm not sure how the $5 cup of coffee became the symbol of financial irresponsibility. An apartment in Midtown NYC runs about $4k a month. LIC is $2.2k. Yet for some reason we blame the coffee.

why are people still trying to live in manhattan? yes the trains are starting to really suck i guess but a couple of years ago (when people were still saying this) it took me 30 minutes to get door to door from brooklyn.

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#29

Post by qntty » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 2:53 PM UTC

kristianc wrote: post #12

ohiovr wrote: post #2

I’m not middle class but if you are thrifty and can prioritize freedom over needless expenses ie $5 cup of coffee it isn’t hard to live very comfortably in many parts of the usa. I understand owning property at all can be much more challenging in europe than it is in much of the usa mainland. Coastland and island living is going to be more expensive for various reasons.

> I’m not middle class but if you are thrifty and can prioritize freedom over needless expenses ie $5 cup of coffee I'm not sure how the $5 cup of coffee became the symbol of financial irresponsibility. An apartment in Midtown NYC runs about $4k a month. LIC is $2.2k. Yet for some reason we blame the coffee.

People need to find a way to blame financial problems on the individuals involved without thinking too hard

Re: Households Need to Earn $300,000 a Year to Live a Middle Class Lifestyle

#30

Post by AnIdiotOnTheNet » Sat, Apr 28, 2018, 2:53 PM UTC

mratzloff wrote: post #10

cimmanom wrote: post #3

Because this article completely misdefines "middle class"? Being middle class doesn't mean you can afford absolutely everything you want. It just means you're financially secure enough not to have to choose between food, clothing, shelter, and healthcare with every paycheck, and to be able to save up a buffer in case of emergency. Example: $2100/mo to feed 3 people is ridiculous. Instead of buying prepared foods, coo…

$2100/mo to feed 3 people is ridiculous. You can feed 3 people on $750/mo. $700/mo/person is $7.65 per meal, which is quite reasonable. $250/mo/person is about $2.70 per meal, which is not. "In 2005, sociologists William Thompson and Joseph Hickey estimate an income range of roughly $35,000 to $75,000 for the lower middle class and $100,000 or more for the upper middle class."[0] In 2018 dollars, that's $44,800 to $9…

> $250/mo/person is about $2.70 per meal, which is not

Are you eating out literally every meal? Because otherwise that's not bad at all. I eat on about $5/day and I'm not even trying to be frugal about it.