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Google Fights Back In Battle For Talent

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Re: Google Fights Back In Battle For Talent

#21

Post by antirez »

edw519 wrote: post #17
antirez wrote: post #14

Maybe I'm not used to the Silicon Valley processes but I think it is pretty uncool to tell your company you received another offer... even without explicitly mentioning you want a raise. You should either be happy with your company, or talk with your boss in order to get better conditions. And if there is no agreement you can look around and go in some other place. But playing the game of the higher offer is somethin…

But playing the game of the higher offer is something that always disturbed me. Not me. Here's my experience (many times): Phase I Me: I deserve more $ because . Boss: I can't because . Phase II Me: I quit (not bluffing). Boss: You can't. Here's more $.

Ok, this is what I think should be the best behavior:

    Phase I
      Me: I deserve more $ because ...
      Boss: I can't because ...
      Me: Ok

    Phase II
      You look for a better job where you can get what you deserve, without telling your company about it.

    Phase III
      I found the job.
      Me: Sorry, I'm leaving, I found a job with the right $
      Boss: Ok, we can match the offer
      Me: no way, I'm leaving.

Re: Google Fights Back In Battle For Talent

#22

Post by edw519 »

Andys wrote: post #20
edw519 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But playing the game of the higher offer is something that always disturbed me. Not me. Here's my experience (many times): Phase I Me: I deserve more $ because . Boss: I can't because . Phase II Me: I quit (not bluffing). Boss: You can't. Here's more $.

Phase III Boss: You're fired. We just offered you more $$ temporarily so we could have time to find a replacement because we no longer trust you after you quit the first time.

Boss: You're fired.

Is this your experience, Andys, are you speculating, or is this just a joke?

This has never happened to me or anyone I know. Loyalty doesn't mean shit anymore and everyone knows it.

On the other hand, my experience has shown that having the balls to stand up for yourself and do whatever you have to do earns new respect.

  Phase III (what really happens)
    Boss treats you better than ever before.

Re: Google Fights Back In Battle For Talent

#23

Post by antirez »

siculars wrote: post #19
edw519 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But playing the game of the higher offer is something that always disturbed me. Not me. Here's my experience (many times): Phase I Me: I deserve more $ because . Boss: I can't because . Phase II Me: I quit (not bluffing). Boss: You can't. Here's more $.

I second your experience, edw519. Unfortunately, often the only way to get management to loosen the purse strings is to come back with another offer from another firm. This exact situation has happened to me. Sad, really.

The problem is understanding if the inability of a given company to recognize the value of an employer is a good enough reason to move away...

Re: Google Fights Back In Battle For Talent

#24

Post by edw519 »

antirez wrote: post #21
edw519 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But playing the game of the higher offer is something that always disturbed me. Not me. Here's my experience (many times): Phase I Me: I deserve more $ because . Boss: I can't because . Phase II Me: I quit (not bluffing). Boss: You can't. Here's more $.

Ok, this is what I think should be the best behavior: Phase I Me: I deserve more $ because ... Boss: I can't because ... Me: Ok Phase II You look for a better job where you can get what you deserve, without telling your company about it. Phase III I found the job. Me: Sorry, I'm leaving, I found a job with the right $ Boss: Ok, we can match the offer Me: no way, I'm leaving.

this is what I think should be the best behavior

This is exactly what not to do.

Don't ever let your employer know you're unhappy, disloyal, or "looking". This leaves you totally exposed, walking a tightrope without a safety net. You'll piss off your boss for no good reason and only reconfirm your current situation by not already having another offer. If you're so damn good, then why don't you have another offer?

There's a big difference between what should work and what does work. On the job, you and your employer are teammates. When it comes to your renumeration, you are adversaries. Don't ever forget that.

Re: Google Fights Back In Battle For Talent

#25

Post by jrockway »

dschobel wrote: post #15
jrockway wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

10-20% is probably not all that much money for Google.

Just because they have cash doesn't mean they want to dig into it, lest we forget that Google already once initiated a hiring freeze during leaner times in the advertising market.

Additionally, I hear they are already underpaying programmers. (I hesitate to mention this because I don't actually have any data.)

If shareholders cared this much about micro- financial issues, Google's headquarters would be based in Kansas and not Silicon Valley. And they wouldn't have solar panels or ball pits, or ... Sparing gross negligence, it seems like shareholders are willing to accept that you need to spend money to make money.

(Incidentally, I work at huge megacorp with annoyed shareholders, but I still get to fly business class when traveling abroad for work. My last flight was something like $11,000 when economy was $1200. Oh hai, order of magnitude! It might seem like a waste of shareholder money, but they accept it as a cost of doing business.)

Re: Google Fights Back In Battle For Talent

#26

Post by donaldc »

bambax wrote: post #10

This looks like a new bubble. Why would a Twitter IPO raise so much money? What are its growth prospects? Facebook may be different, but still, it all sounds very crazy.

A new bubble would result from investors putting more money into tech companies that had no chance of success. Google raising pay for some of its engineers is not a bubble.

Re: Google Fights Back In Battle For Talent

#27

Post by jasonkester »

antirez wrote: post #21
edw519 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But playing the game of the higher offer is something that always disturbed me. Not me. Here's my experience (many times): Phase I Me: I deserve more $ because . Boss: I can't because . Phase II Me: I quit (not bluffing). Boss: You can't. Here's more $.

Ok, this is what I think should be the best behavior: Phase I Me: I deserve more $ because ... Boss: I can't because ... Me: Ok Phase II You look for a better job where you can get what you deserve, without telling your company about it. Phase III I found the job. Me: Sorry, I'm leaving, I found a job with the right $ Boss: Ok, we can match the offer Me: no way, I'm leaving.

Minus the Phase II (never tell them you're planning to leave), I've done this a couple times with good success.

It's healthy for both sides. You get a better job and a bit of self-satisfied pleasure during the "no, you lost me" speech. They get to understand why they lost a good worker, and the real costs associated with it. With luck, the team you left behind will have a better environment, since just maybe management will learn something.

Re: Google Fights Back In Battle For Talent

#28

Post by jasonkester »

edw519 wrote: post #22
Andys wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Phase III Boss: You're fired. We just offered you more $$ temporarily so we could have time to find a replacement because we no longer trust you after you quit the first time.

Boss: You're fired. Is this your experience, Andys, are you speculating, or is this just a joke? This has never happened to me or anyone I know. Loyalty doesn't mean shit anymore and everyone knows it. On the other hand, my experience has shown that having the balls to stand up for yourself and do whatever you have to do earns new respect. Phase III (what really happens) Boss treats you better than ever before.

I've seen it happen (Phase 3: fired), though fortunately not to me.

- company scrambles to come up with a good counteroffer, with more money and a transfer onto a more exciting project.

- company decides it needs to lay people off

- "more exiting project" manager sees some new guy on his roster, making more than everybody else. Seems like a safe choice for the axe.

So in a few months, you can go from having two really good offers to being on unemployment and having your best possible alternative being a company that you've left hanging.

The rule in situations like this is to always go to the new company. You can play offers off each other if you like, but the risk of staying put is just not worth it.

Re: Google Fights Back In Battle For Talent

#29

Post by antirez »

jasonkester wrote: post #27
antirez wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, this is what I think should be the best behavior: Phase I Me: I deserve more $ because ... Boss: I can't because ... Me: Ok Phase II You look for a better job where you can get what you deserve, without telling your company about it. Phase III I found the job. Me: Sorry, I'm leaving, I found a job with the right $ Boss: Ok, we can match the offer Me: no way, I'm leaving.

Minus the Phase II (never tell them you're planning to leave), I've done this a couple times with good success. It's healthy for both sides. You get a better job and a bit of self-satisfied pleasure during the "no, you lost me" speech. They get to understand why they lost a good worker, and the real costs associated with it. With luck, the team you left behind will have a better environment, since just maybe manageme…

Yep sorry I was not clear, in phase II you are not supposed to tell you are looking for another job.

Re: Google Fights Back In Battle For Talent

#30

Post by shareme »

The problem with the article is that it misses the big point.. Google is attempting to save some costs in hiring at the high levels of coding engineers..with a comparison of that costs per employee against the cost to offer a 20% raise is somewhat a miss-leading and pointless article..or what we call link-bait.

And some of the Hr hiring costs per employee can be determine from the Google SEC filings..by making some assumptions and completing some calculations..

And on top of that most high end Google engineer hires and this has been in fact talked about only become fully productive at 12 to 18 months after joining Google..

So lets do the calculations that MA of Tc should have been somewhat curious to do..

$120,000 salary per year times 80% non-productive first 12 months..learning the Google engineering system etc..

$96,000 in loss productivity costs

now ad Hr department costs of interviewing and etc..

$20,000..my guess..only guess.

so now we are up to a subtotal of $116,000.. and $120,000 times 20% is..$24,000

Change the salary to say $400,000 still similar differences in costs of the two decisions..with Google wining out on their own cost decision..

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