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Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

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Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#571

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Related to this, I'm sick of the moderators deleting comments and moving discussions to chats on a whim just because they're seeing too many comment. They don't seem to realize they're not helping anybody; they keep doing this as if it's Truth ordered by God. Like, StackExchange admins: If you're getting flags, there's offensive material, the comments are blatantly off-topic, etc., then OK, I get that; you can step i…

>discussion Ooooh, You used the d word! Closed because Stack overflow is not for discussion. What SO needs is a forum - not an ephemeral chat but a forum whose topics can be linked to the questions that people want to discuss.

No, please don't push things out to a forum - few would use a forum and it doubles the pages a searcher has to check to see if they've got the appropriate question/answer.

A lot of the time if there's many comments on a question or answer it's because there's some nuance that needs to be brought out or the answer has limitations etc. Someone arriving from search probably needs and wants to know that - and will take but a moment to decide if the comments look worthwhile enough to expand and read more.

SO displays it well enough technically by only picking out the top 4 or 5 comments. What SO needs is the mods leaving the comments well alone unless they're abusive or spam.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#572
post #59

> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place True. There's definitely an elitist undertone at Stack Overflow, and the voting system has a huge effect on that... > especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups. But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems…

It’s hard to take your claims seriously, when you proudly and publically publish meandering rants (linked to your HN account) about how gaming communities are in no way toxic, while completely denying Gamergate, its ties to white supremacists and a wealth of other examples [1].

[1] https://gamingreinvented.com/nintendoarticles/no-the-gaming-...

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#573

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does that matter on a site like SO? I usually use “they” not to assume gender, but does it really bother you if someone assumes male?

Don't know about others, but for me the answer is: A little bit. Not a huge amount, not because someone on the internet got it wrong. But because it is a reminder that I basically have to try and hide my gender on a huge part of the internet to not be harassed. I already have to stay away from LinkedIn unless I am applying for a job due to guys thinking it is a dating site. I have to pick ambiguous usernames that don…

> It bothers me that I basically have to pretend to be a dude on most of the internet because of assholes.

At least on the Internet, you can pretend, in the meatspace, you simply can't.

I also wouldn't call these people assholes, it might be convenient but imho it's needlessly vilifying people for simply behaving like they are expected to and how they've behaved for the longest time.

Because for the longest time, and in most places to this day, males are expected to initiate contact, if they are interested in a relationship with a female.

Now, one could argue that's outdated and "sexist", but that doesn't change the fact that large parts of our societies (and our behavior) are still shaped by these expectations. It's not that people want to be assholes, people simply don't want to be alone and for the longest time, the most common and accepted solution for that was for males to initiate contact and woo the females.

Sadly this is an angle on all this that too often gets ignored in favor of some simplified narrative where all these guys are just a bunch of misogynists who consider women their property or something like that. While these types do exist too, it just feels dishonest to frame this whole issue like that.

Because as a male the reality of the situation pretty much boils down to this: You are either proactive and approach people or... you stay alone. I'm not trying to dramatize here, I'm just trying to point something out that seems to be largely ignored in these kinds of discussions.

Not everybody is a socialite who constantly meets new people without any effort, heck for the longest time we've been told that female brains are explicitly better at socializing that than male brains (or is that considered sexist now too?). So what are males supposed to do in this situation? Just sit tight until a female approaches them? That's pretty much a "forever alone" sentence for the vast majority of males.

That's why at some point for many males this becomes a simple issue of game theory: You can't meet new females without approaching new females, the more new females you approach the higher the likelihood that you will end up with one of them.

As sad and sterile as it might sound, in the end, it often just boils down to "trying often enough" and it's been that way for the longest time and I'm pretty certain this is engrained in our nature to a certain degree. Millions of years of behavioral evolution don't just vanish in a matter of years.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#574
post #59

> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place True. There's definitely an elitist undertone at Stack Overflow, and the voting system has a huge effect on that... > especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups. But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems…

> No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it,

Stack Overflow allows people to use photographs in their profile.

You're saying that women and POC are not allowed to be themselves. That they cannot use features everyone else is free to use. That they must lie about who they are in order to participate on the Internet

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#575

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But this isn't true... You completely missed this point. To quote the article: > Many people, especially those in marginalized groups do feel less welcome. We know because they tell us. Hanlon doesn't claim to know why the marginalized groups feel unwelcome. He doesn't even claim that the root cause is a bias of action -- conscious or subconscious -- on the part of SO's users or staff. What he said was these groups…

> > Many people, especially those in marginalized groups do feel less welcome. We know because they tell us. This particular argument is really bad IMHO. OP has a point - nobody knows who you are. That means if some people feel they are treated worse it is due to their own perception. After all, objectively they are not treated worse then everybody else. Which to me sounds more like a bias in their perception. They m…

To be fair, it sounds like OP u/CM30 has a bias himself, turning a blind eye towards toxic gaming communities[1]

[1] https://gamingreinvented.com/nintendoarticles/no-the-gaming-...

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#576
Allow me to translate the article: All you assholes that have been blessing our site with your free content and gotten us at number 1, 2, and 3 position on the first page of Google in every country and made us untold millions of dollars, guess what? We don't you no more. You aren't cool and trendy and you won't get us any likes on TwitFace so shove off. We have a new demographic.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#577
post #59

> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place True. There's definitely an elitist undertone at Stack Overflow, and the voting system has a huge effect on that... > especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups. But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems…

> No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it For example, it's quite easy to tell you are a white male. What gave you away? The "I'm not listening and I know better than you that your concerns are not valid" part

Seems like OP has a bias himself thinking toxic gaming communities don’t exist

[1] https://gamingreinvented.com/nintendoarticles/no-the-gaming-...

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#578
post #59

> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place True. There's definitely an elitist undertone at Stack Overflow, and the voting system has a huge effect on that... > especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups. But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems…

> No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it For example, it's quite easy to tell you are a white male. What gave you away? The "I'm not listening and I know better than you that your concerns are not valid" part

If you think that attitude is limited to white males, I’d suggest widening your social circle. It in fact describes most people of every gender and ethnicity.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#579
post #59

> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place True. There's definitely an elitist undertone at Stack Overflow, and the voting system has a huge effect on that... > especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups. But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems…

>But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems to be a disdain towards newer members in general, not ones from any particular group. Trying to make this about minorities feels like a desperate attempt to fit in with the 'social justice' sphere, and to virtue signal to people on sites like Twitter. Thank you for saying th…

Doesn’t seem like OP is particularly welcome to people “from all walks of life”. For example, he seems to have a clear bias in denying the existience of toxic gaming communities [1], never mind Gamergate and it’s ties to white supremacy groups

[1] https://gamingreinvented.com/nintendoarticles/no-the-gaming-...

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#580

I attempted to use Stack Overflow about a week ago. In regards to a Javascript problem I was having. I do not know this language very well (at all) When it comes to JS I am deinately a newbie. I kept on getting "undefined object" when I was trying use return value from an (external) library function. I could see in web browser debugger there was data but it wouldn't let me return. All the top results in google involv…

True but you could add your own answer.
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