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Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

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541–550 of 739 posts

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#541
Minorities part is nonsense in my opinion; apart from that I can see both sides of the problem.

It is definitely an issue the way community treats new users. My guess is that when going through review queues, one gets into that mode.

On the other hand, it would kill the website if it was drowned with low quality duplicate questions and vague questions with no details - which are asked and closed constantly. (Just look at what superuser has become)

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#542

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The comment I replied to said minorities. This isn't about society, it's about a website with worldwide access using anonymous usernames. Nobody is inherently disadvantaged. The exact issue is harsh replies and actions that stem from the gamification dynamics and strict moderation. It has nothing to do with physical traits of the user on either side, especially when users are anonymous. Minorities and marginalized gr…

> The comment I replied to said minorities. Yes, and I answered your question about where the pattern of using “minorities” as it was used there came from. > This isn't about society, it's about a website with worldwide access using anonymous usernames. How is that not part of society? > Nobody is inherently disadvantaged. The issue with disadvantaged, underrepresented, and/or marginalized groups has very little to d…

Why are you even discussing tort law? Feelings are not damage. Has your emotional psyche has been permanently affected leading to challenges in how you function and cope in life? Feeling sad or frustrated or annoyed because your question was downvoted is not emotional distress. And what does this have to do with Stackoverflow? What's the duty of a commenter? How do you know the intent? Who's getting traumatized by that site specifically?

You're reaching here and if you are more affected than average by comments from other people (on SO or life in general) then perhaps you should work on that instead of claiming emotional suffering.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#543
There is a time that arrives for many companies where they stop being from cool, fast, creative, whimsical to... well, just collection of business suits. So first consider the fact that this is written by Jay Hanlon, EVP of Culture and Experience. When you see titles like this for individuals working in full time position at about the highest level of executive staff, you know what I was talking about. To confirm my fear, I looked up if this EVP guy actually has account on Stackoverflow. All I can find is jhanlon with no real profile, no contributions and no real activity. So we indeed have a suit who has no first hand experience with the product, it’s culture or experience. In typical fashion of suits, this guy also stays on the safe side of “be kind” without ever diving in to details, pro and cons, data or real remedies.

If Joel is still running this thing he needs to wake up.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#544
It's very difficult to be optimised for people Googling in their hour of desperation, while also being a community between the rest of the time. I have to admit that I'm somewhat hypocritical, in that I get angry when I see Wikipedia-style policing of content, but I also appreciate when I land on a well-edited, general-case answer to a problem that I'm having.

I don't think I've generally ever been disappointed with the Google-optimised workflow, but I've never cared much about scoring points on the site itself, and I only very rarely have to ask a question.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#545

There is a time that arrives for many companies where they stop being from cool, fast, creative, whimsical to... well, just collection of business suits. So first consider the fact that this is written by Jay Hanlon, EVP of Culture and Experience. When you see titles like this for individuals working in full time position at about the highest level of executive staff, you know what I was talking about. To confirm my…

You don’t think he’s involved in this process? You don’t think many of the employees are? Who do you think hired the EVP of culture. Joel is currently writing about this same issue.

There’s a problem. Data backs this up.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#546
Random idea: replace the terminology of "duplicate" questions with "similar" questions. Add a mechanism where, if an answer could apply to two very similar questions, show the answer in both places. Rather than closing a question as a "duplicate", add UI to group "similar" questions, eg, rather than filtering out "duplicate" questions from search results, instead show "similar" questions as groups, with the "best" questions and answers shown first in that group.

The "best" way of asking a question may well not be as it was written the "first" time.

Or phrasing another way, remove the "older is better" bias.

Another example: currently, a new user, unfamiliar with the site, comes along, asks a basic question that has been asked a hundred times, and they ignore the "related questions" prompts. The community reacts by down-voting and closing their question, pointing to a better question. How about instead of "related questions", the question was immediately responded to with "related answers" instead? Rather than being snubbed for asking a simple question, new users would be encouraged by getting a quick response. As the questions would be grouped and the answers shared, low quality questions just wouldn't get much upvote attention, and could likely would get filtered out of searches and lists of "hot" questions, as they wouldn't be the best in a similar group of questions.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#547

As a pretty big contributor to stackoverflow I feel that this is getting blown out of proportion. I'll usually go extra mile to help someone out but I like my time and the platform to be respected. I often feel that people either expect for their minds to be read or are just bad at explaining there problem. I don't think SO community has to carry the burden of teaching people how to request help - I think it's a skil…

I pretty much agree with the sentiment, but it seems to me that what you're condoning (i.e. showing what was done wrong and then the culprit will try again and improve) is problematic for many newbies. Think of the many students in math class who fear the idea of being told they're wrong more than the actual problem. I enjoy building a work environment where I can be expected to be corrected and I can safely correct people, but that is not a given in a public forum. I think the answer is to enable newbies to partake in a try-fail-try cycle but in a much more forgiving/inviting environment. The difficulty is in improving/designing that without sacrificing the overall quality of the forum.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#548
post #45

I've experienced a form of hostility in StackOverflow just recently--as in a couple of days ago. On a whim, I visited the website and answered a couple questions, something I'd never done before. I realized it was actually a lot of fun, so I started rapidly answering the all JavaScript questions I could as they were asked. Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to…

Yeah it's a weird mix of helpful content moderated by an irritating hall monitor like community wielding power and making changes nobody wants. I've been frustrated when trying to contribute - you'll have two people helping each other and then some third party comes in and declares it not valuable, incorrectly says something is a duplicate, or starts deleting things for arbitrary reasons. I just want the moderators t…

But the goal of SO is not for you two to have a chat - it's to produce quality questions and answers for future visitors. When SO's moderation team does its job well, you only see them "harassing" you. When they don't, you google your question and get vague, poorly-worded questions answered by incorrect one-liners. SO's moderation is an effort to balance three parties with conflicting interests:

- the people asking questions just want a solution for their specific problem, which may or may not be useful to SO. This can include homework problems, RTFM problems, vague and unclear questions, etc.

- the people answering questions want interesting questions that stimulate them to keep using the site. SO really needs those people to feel happy answering questions, otherwise no one will visit the site! You need experts providing quality answers, who can find something interesting.

- the people visiting the site after-the-fact. Those people are (usually) just googling a problem they have, but aren't willing to commit to a question. They need both the questioners and the answerers to have done their jobs, otherwise either the questions are too poor a quality to be sure it's the same problem, or the answers are too poor quality to be of use to them.

To all those groups, effective SO moderation looks antagonistic, because they wouldn't go to the site if it had awful moderation - it would just be "that useless place where no one answers your questions and you keep getting the same question over and over".

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#549

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But this isn't true... You completely missed this point. To quote the article: > Many people, especially those in marginalized groups do feel less welcome. We know because they tell us. Hanlon doesn't claim to know why the marginalized groups feel unwelcome. He doesn't even claim that the root cause is a bias of action -- conscious or subconscious -- on the part of SO's users or staff. What he said was these groups…

> > Many people, especially those in marginalized groups do feel less welcome. We know because they tell us. This particular argument is really bad IMHO. OP has a point - nobody knows who you are. That means if some people feel they are treated worse it is due to their own perception. After all, objectively they are not treated worse then everybody else. Which to me sounds more like a bias in their perception. They m…

People are not claiming they are being treated worse than less marginalised people. They’re claiming they themselves do not feel welcome. It’s definitely all about perception, but that doesn’t mean it’s invalid.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#550
post #45

I've experienced a form of hostility in StackOverflow just recently--as in a couple of days ago. On a whim, I visited the website and answered a couple questions, something I'd never done before. I realized it was actually a lot of fun, so I started rapidly answering the all JavaScript questions I could as they were asked. Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to…

Let me present you other side of the story. I have been user of SO and significant level contributor for as long as it’s been there. Virtually every day there is onslaught of people asking questions that are trivially answerable by simple search or not well formed or not even legibly written. Everyday lot of people end up spending their time in answering these rathar than focusing on questions that are far more worth their time. You may say, well, leave it up to folks to what they want to answer. The problem is that it doesn’t work that way. Spammy question often ends up overwhelming limited screen space and good questions gets buried like a needle in the haystack. Even worse, lot of people go after trivial stuff just to get more points. Even more worse people who ask bad questions get encouraged to keep doing same things. You can see where this is going.

In nutshell, current system is not ideal but it has been put in place after lots of thoughts. No one is going to disagree with being more respectful and kind however the solution to this problem is much more of a technical challenge.

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