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Be Good

paulgraham.com

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Re: Be Good

#141

Post by allenbrunson »

wanorris wrote: post #51
allenbrunson wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

i think microsoft beat apple because apple was busy beating itself. apple had about a ten-year lead in gui operating systems, but couldn't keep up. steve jobs was immature, and engineered things such that he was made irrelevant in his own company. the dude's firing on all cylinders now, and is virtually unstoppable. it's very painful to switch operating systems, due to network effects. all your friends use windows, y…

"i think microsoft beat apple because apple was busy beating itself. apple had about a ten-year lead in gui operating systems, but couldn't keep up" Microsoft gave people a clear transition to a windowing environment -- back when people weren't even sure they wanted one -- that allowed them to run hardware from any vendor they wanted, with software from the vendors they were used to using, and allowed them to load a…

i think you're making too big of a deal out of hardware choice. you're talking about people who don't know if they want a gui or not, yet you think those same people will want to choose what type of computer to run it on? as if. people like that want to AVOID having to make choices like that, as often as possible.

i'm up at the other end of the spectrum: i know all the tradeoffs, i'm as technically savvy as computer buyers get ... yet i don't want to make that choice, either. i haven't had to worry about what type of hard disk controller i've got for ten years or more, and i'm glad to be rid of dealing with piddly issues like that.

the only people who care about the low-level hardware they're using are gamers, tinkerers, and cheapskates. probably a tiny percentage of the total computer-using population.

well, i guess i do care about what hardware i'm using -- to the extent that i want it to be pleasant to use. once again, apple's interests are exactly aligned with my own.

Re: Be Good

#142

Post by smock »

wensing wrote: post #140
andres wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Digi-Key is the largest small-volume distributor of electronic parts in the US. They do $1.2Bn per year in revenue of which $700M is done online. Their gross margins are about 50% and their business is growing at 20% per year. When Microsoft accused Linux of violating 50 software patents, most people thought they were pretty evil. The claims were frivolous and their aim was to preserve their market share at the expen…

_by displaying their public information_ What is public about it?

This information is freely available on their website (not to mention their widely distributed paper catalogs). Google has crawled much of Digi-Key's website and has this information on their servers. However, Digi-Key is specifically targeting Octopart (actually, I'm not sure if they're threatening Google, my uninformed guess is no though). The only thing we're doing differently than Google is distilling the information in a way that allows part buyers to compare prices readily. There are other part information websites also crawling Digi-Key, but Octopart is one of the only ones doing price comparison - again, I'm just guessing, but I doubt Digi-Key is threatening any of these other websites.

Re: Be Good

#143

Post by DevinDawson »

mhb wrote: post #19

I have no idea how Digi-Key is interacting with Octopart, but I have been buying parts from them for a long time and have nothing but good things to say about them. I like the company so much that I called to see if they were public so that I could buy stock; they're not. Although Octopart and its investors may be frustrated, it does Digi-Key a disservice to characterize it as "evil", not "good" or a company that isn…

That's a central question though. Digi-Key doesn't want to compete on price (potentially because they believe that the price reported isn't an accurate portrayal of their offering, because of inventory, service, et al). The problem with that is that it doesn't help (actively hinders?) the reduction information costs for the other market participants (Octopart's value as I understand it). Whether this is evil or not depends on what brand of free marketeer you are...

One possible way to address this would be to incorporate some kind of a service metric into Octopart, similar to the way that pricewatch evolved.

Re: Be Good

#144

Post by wensing »

andres wrote: post #131
mhb wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It didn't seem like all that much more evidence was required to refute your one piece of evidence that Digi-Key is evil because they don't want Octopart to list their prices. Even if I had no evidence, my default assumption would be that they were good until confronted with significant evidence that they were evil. And between good and evil there's a nice-sized neutral middle area which it appears you have transited…

The reason Paul is calling Digi-Key evil is because they are actively trying to kill Octopart in order to preserve their monopoly pricing, not because they won't cooperate. Octopart needs as much cooperation from Digi-Key as Google needs from Wikipedia.

Monopoly is a misnomer here. Is Wal-Mart a monopoly?

The parts supply industry is not an industry of monopolies. There are a few large names--Grainger, McMaster-Carr, MSC, Digi-Key--that probably account for 25% of the market, and then a very, very, very long list of names most people have never heard of.

Ironically, Ma & Pa Electronics are frequently the ones with the highest prices. Large distributors like Digi-Key are often less expensive than small local shops.

Re: Be Good

#145

Post by kleevr »

guyk wrote: post #95

Oh man does this ring some bells for me. I started bugmenot.com years ago to help people. And then I started retailmenot.com with much the same end in mind. Because people dug bugmenot I got the critical mass I needed for retailmenot to work. Then it turns out you can make money off online shopping stuff. Fast forward to now, we've got 5 staff still building cool stuff (that helps people), having fun and making money…

Thanks for building bugmenot btw. I've used that site on and off for the last 2 years or so, I always look before I start a bullshit account.

What kind of conversion do you get when a person looks up a site, doesn't find a working account, leading to a new user submission for the site in question?

Re: Be Good

#147

Post by andres »

DevinDawson wrote: post #143
mhb wrote: post #19

I have no idea how Digi-Key is interacting with Octopart, but I have been buying parts from them for a long time and have nothing but good things to say about them. I like the company so much that I called to see if they were public so that I could buy stock; they're not. Although Octopart and its investors may be frustrated, it does Digi-Key a disservice to characterize it as "evil", not "good" or a company that isn…

That's a central question though. Digi-Key doesn't want to compete on price (potentially because they believe that the price reported isn't an accurate portrayal of their offering, because of inventory, service, et al). The problem with that is that it doesn't help (actively hinders?) the reduction information costs for the other market participants (Octopart's value as I understand it). Whether this is evil or not d…

Digi-Key is considered evil because they are trying to kill Octopart in order to preserve their monopoly pricing. They are making the frivolous claim that Octopart is acting illegally when it displays public information and links back to their webpage.

Basically, Digi-Key is using their size in order to prevent free market competition in their industry.

Re: Be Good

#148

Post by kleevr »

yters wrote: post #104
tlb wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Smith is is saying that customers can depend on businesses providing value out of their own self interest (in order to make money.) Graham is saying that as a business, you'll be most successful if you spend your energy trying to be good to your customers, rather than, say, trying to squeeze a little more money from them. Smith: greed => good service => profit & happy customers Graham: benevolence => wonderful servic…

It really depends on your definition of self interest too. Benevolent people either think their benevolence benefits them materially, or gain satisfaction from altruism. Both are forms of self interest.

I personally think altruism is born the murkiest waters of self-interest. But discriptive psychalogical egoism skirts the the issue a bit and forks us into a long examination of the nature of the "soul". But, whether altruism is some measure "divine" (or symbolically derived), or born completely out of self-interest, there is a wide consensus on what it ought to look like.

(egoism is an easy card play, we could pull the appartus down and have a look at it though, but we might not get much farther than those that have gone before us.)

Re: Be Good

#149

Post by wanorris »

allenbrunson wrote: post #141
wanorris wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"i think microsoft beat apple because apple was busy beating itself. apple had about a ten-year lead in gui operating systems, but couldn't keep up" Microsoft gave people a clear transition to a windowing environment -- back when people weren't even sure they wanted one -- that allowed them to run hardware from any vendor they wanted, with software from the vendors they were used to using, and allowed them to load a…

i think you're making too big of a deal out of hardware choice. you're talking about people who don't know if they want a gui or not, yet you think those same people will want to choose what type of computer to run it on? as if. people like that want to AVOID having to make choices like that, as often as possible. i'm up at the other end of the spectrum: i know all the tradeoffs, i'm as technically savvy as computer…

> i think you're making too big of a deal out of hardware choice. you're talking about people who don't know if they want a gui or not, yet you think those same people will want to choose what type of computer to run it on? as if.

For casual consumers, hardware choice mostly only matters in that you can go buy a variety of Windows computers at Best Buy for under $500 bundled with a monitor and a printer. There are also laptops in that range, as well.

This is important for two reasons. First, because some people just don't have a lot of money. If you are living in poverty, all the nifty extra features a Mac might have don't really matter. Second, because there are more multiple-PC homes. If you're buying a second computer for the kids or checking email or whatever, a simple, cheap system may do everything you want.

For less casual users, there are HTPCs, tablet PCs, sub-$500 ultralight notebooks like the Eee, gaming notebooks, and other segments that Apple doesn't compete in.

Re: Be Good

#150

Post by DevinDawson »

andres wrote: post #147
DevinDawson wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a central question though. Digi-Key doesn't want to compete on price (potentially because they believe that the price reported isn't an accurate portrayal of their offering, because of inventory, service, et al). The problem with that is that it doesn't help (actively hinders?) the reduction information costs for the other market participants (Octopart's value as I understand it). Whether this is evil or not d…

Digi-Key is considered evil because they are trying to kill Octopart in order to preserve their monopoly pricing. They are making the frivolous claim that Octopart is acting illegally when it displays public information and links back to their webpage. Basically, Digi-Key is using their size in order to prevent free market competition in their industry.

I need to hear a much stronger case for Digi-Key having monopoly pricing power than just an assertion. Aren't the distributors market shares fairly fragmented (the assumption I'm operating on)? Digi-Key seems to have a large market share because it has built some kind of service reputation.

I don't really understand the legal position of scraping (and I'd love to see an accessible semi-authoritative explanation of the current state), but I do read lots of TOS's that basically say that that information is _not_ "public domain".

I'm in spiritual agreement with you as to what benefits part buyers the most (I think most people are wise enough to factor in some level of service into cost), but I think it's useful to think about Digi-Key's motivations in more dimensions than just good/evil. Again, I offer the pricewatch feedback/stars as an initial step that might address at least one apparent grievance. Not that that would stop them from fighting you (and good luck on that).

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