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Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

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Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#401

Post by Fins »

kbenson wrote: post #399
Fins wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that "people in general" == "people whose native alphabet is Latin-based"?

Eh, sort of. I kind of got mixed up between the point of saying "I think people in general are more likely to attempt a language with less obvious initial hurdles given a relatively equal set of benefits from learning them (to their understanding)" and a statement about those languages in particular that follows along those lines. So, for your proposed equivalence, I think my original statement is true, and I also th…

Apart from relative usefulness of different languages (Latin script based Kazakh would probably be considered less generally useful than Chinese, say).

Initial attempt maybe. But I think very soon most people will find out that if you are coming from an Indo-European background, Kazakh or Finnish, regardless of script used, is far more foreign than Russian or German.

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#402

Post by mantas »

Fins wrote: post #390
mantas wrote: post #263

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Come to Baltic states. Some people went as far as refusing to speak Russian during Soviet times. Now many young people don't speak Russian and don't even try to because of anti-Russian position. Personally I don't respond in Russian if I'm sure the person was born or lived here for decades. If they look like tourists, I try to help with few Russian words I know or ask if they speak English... Old good pointing at the…

Funny, I know at least one Mantas in Vilnius. While I prefer speaking English when I am there (which happens pretty regularly), it seems that people are actually more willing to speak Russian. Probably because they are trying to sell you something...

You not living here for decades and refusing the local language on principle makes a huge difference.

People you’re dealing with age makes a big difference too. 35+ will speak good Russian and probably have a hard time with English. Younger are very likely to be the other way around.

P.S. Mantas was super popular name in late 80s thanks to a movie Herkus Mantas.

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#403

Post by kbenson »

Fins wrote: post #401
kbenson wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, sort of. I kind of got mixed up between the point of saying "I think people in general are more likely to attempt a language with less obvious initial hurdles given a relatively equal set of benefits from learning them (to their understanding)" and a statement about those languages in particular that follows along those lines. So, for your proposed equivalence, I think my original statement is true, and I also th…

Apart from relative usefulness of different languages (Latin script based Kazakh would probably be considered less generally useful than Chinese, say). Initial attempt maybe. But I think very soon most people will find out that if you are coming from an Indo-European background, Kazakh or Finnish, regardless of script used, is far more foreign than Russian or German.

Sure, but the catch-22 is that most people won't have a good idea how to assess the difficulty of learning a language until they've tried, and it seems different people have different difficulties with the process. From the outside at the beginning, the different alphabet seems like quite a big deal.

Thats how it feels to me at least when I think about learning another language. It's a data point of one, but I don't think I'm that unique in this.

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#404

Post by Bendingo »

pc2g4d wrote: post #168
azangru wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People have easier time learning English, and it eases the communication a lot Is this really so? Are you sure having a different alphabet would make it harder for people to learn a western language? I am Russian, and I can safely say that pretty much every literate adult in Russia who has at least a basic school education can read Latin letters just fine, because there is no way around it; the alphabet is taught a…

The Cyrillic alphabet is a major barrier to learning Russian for Americans. I can only imagine it makes Kazakh even more daunting. I don't think Cyrillic letters pervade American culture in quite the same way that Latin letters pervade Russian culture, so it's not quite the same.

The Cyrillic alphabet has been the easiest part of earning Russian (for me, having English as my native language and coming to Russian relatively late in life).

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#405

Post by Bendingo »

vbezhenar wrote: post #126
djsumdog wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was in Moldova a few years back and the friends I was visiting only spoke Romanian. Almost all native Moldovans speak Russian and Romanian (and can read/write both alphabets). Some people would only talk to my friends in Russian though, even when they kept saying they only knew Romanian. One of my friends said this was a political thing, with some people using the choice of their default language being who they sup…

I might imagine that someone would refuse to speak Russian to underline his anti-Russian position, but I never met such a person.

I have met many such people (with Russian as their mother-tongue), who flat-out refuse to speak Russian.

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#406

Post by Fins »

kbenson wrote: post #403
Fins wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apart from relative usefulness of different languages (Latin script based Kazakh would probably be considered less generally useful than Chinese, say). Initial attempt maybe. But I think very soon most people will find out that if you are coming from an Indo-European background, Kazakh or Finnish, regardless of script used, is far more foreign than Russian or German.

Sure, but the catch-22 is that most people won't have a good idea how to assess the difficulty of learning a language until they've tried, and it seems different people have different difficulties with the process. From the outside at the beginning, the different alphabet seems like quite a big deal. Thats how it feels to me at least when I think about learning another language. It's a data point of one, but I don't…

I'm not sure if most people start learning languages just because they seem "easy" either. There has to be some reason.

And once you do start, something like differences between analytic and synthetic languages probably would be more of a tripping point.

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#407

Post by Fins »

mantas wrote: post #402
Fins wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny, I know at least one Mantas in Vilnius. While I prefer speaking English when I am there (which happens pretty regularly), it seems that people are actually more willing to speak Russian. Probably because they are trying to sell you something...

You not living here for decades and refusing the local language on principle makes a huge difference. People you’re dealing with age makes a big difference too. 35+ will speak good Russian and probably have a hard time with English. Younger are very likely to be the other way around. P.S. Mantas was super popular name in late 80s thanks to a movie Herkus Mantas.

Well, that's true. But then I tried to learn at least "please" and "thank you" even when I was visiting in the 80's.

It does actually seem that it's the same people who would've refused to speak Russian before who are perfectly happy to do it now. Not that I would blame them at all, just find it amusing really.

Mantas I know is ~40+ years old, so probably not because of a movie.

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#408

Post by mantas »

Fins wrote: post #407
mantas wrote: post #402

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You not living here for decades and refusing the local language on principle makes a huge difference. People you’re dealing with age makes a big difference too. 35+ will speak good Russian and probably have a hard time with English. Younger are very likely to be the other way around. P.S. Mantas was super popular name in late 80s thanks to a movie Herkus Mantas.

Well, that's true. But then I tried to learn at least "please" and "thank you" even when I was visiting in the 80's. It does actually seem that it's the same people who would've refused to speak Russian before who are perfectly happy to do it now. Not that I would blame them at all, just find it amusing really. Mantas I know is ~40+ years old, so probably not because of a movie.

> But then I tried to learn at least "please" and "thank you" even when I was visiting in the 80's.

Which already puts you way above local Russian-speaking population. We appreciate that. A lot.

> It does actually seem that it's the same people who would've refused to speak Russian before who are perfectly happy to do it now. Not that I would blame them at all, just find it amusing really.

It's kinda natural. People who saw obscenities in 1940s are dying out. The vocal pro-USSR/Russia people are diminishing too (although Latvia and Estonia may have different experience). Tension of the change of 1990s is gone. Those who weren't happy about the situation left for Russia or WE.

I'm pretty sure if Ukraine (as well as overall policies that caused it) hadn't happened, we'd have rather decent relations.

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#409

Post by kingofhdds »

madeel wrote: post #394
kingofhdds wrote: post #383

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to communicate. What liberalization? This comment is neither answer to the mine, nor continuation of your own above.

liberalization: How liberals seems to interpret adoption of western systems as cure to all problems. In this very case latinization.

Now I see the meaning of your commentary, thanks! Still, I don't see how it could be related to what I wrote here, or even to what you wrote opening the thread.

Also, let me tell you: trying to explain every phenomena in terms of liberal conspiracy is rather unproductive. The world is way more complex than that. Actually, in post-Soviet countries conservatives (in politological meaning) are often pro-Western, and lefties are anti-. And you probably the first man on Earth who called Nursultan Nazarbaev's regime "liberal".

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#410

Post by heliodor »

ahakki wrote: post #204
heliodor wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the measuring stick is not English. Is it Latin? Which version? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_alphabet Or is it all modern non-Cyrillic letters used in Europe that don't have diacritics? In any case, diacritics are a positive. They're used to make a language as phonetic as possible, which is a net positive. As anyone can attest, learning to pronounce English words (or French, for that matter) is a lot…

Learing to pronounce French words is rather easy. English is a huge mess.

Easy? Fine. But it's still a huge waste of time on a global scale compared to phonetic languages, when you consider how many people have to learn French, English, etc.
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