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Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

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Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#221
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The one thing I appreciate about SO is that its users aren't afraid to call out dumb questions for what they are. Seriously, the majority of new questions _are_ dumb, or at least misunderstand the point of SO being a canonical source for generalized questions relating to CS/programming. Consider this recent question: "Should I start edx cs50 course before any other JavaScript course, or in the middle, or after?" This…

> the point of SO being a canonical source for generalized questions relating to CS/programming. NO. The point of SO is NOT to be a "canonical source for generalized questions [and answers] relating to CS/Programming". In fact, if you ask a "generalized question" it will be smacked down as "too broad". If you ask a CS question, it will be downvoted as off-topic. SO is a place to ask certain kinds of very specific and…

> Anything outside of that narrow band (hell, even most stuff that's perfect appropriate) gets smugly dismissed by petty assholes.

The petty assholes who spend hours of their time tediously cultivating one of the world's most useful resources? Those petty assholes?

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#222
post #205

"Alright, I am a white male. I started programming when I was 10, winning programming competitions as a kid, after years of hard work, sleepless nights and study, heavily postponed pleasure and significant relationships, watched with disbelief what other teenagers do instead of working on their future, I am now suddenly privileged and biased, because I try to answer Stack Overflow/Reddit/etc. questions straight to th…

It is unbelievable the amount of garbage they throw at people who contributed so much to society. What other industry creates so much free stuff like the horrible programmers with their open source and free tutorials all over the place?

I think this is actually the problem, the programming culture is too open and permissive, all you need is a laptop and an internet connection to make your mark on the world. But people don't want that, what they want is a certificate and status. That's why you see so many women doctors and lawyers, they would rather go through a system which whisk them from one point to another and protect them with certificates than doing something themselves.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#223
I have 400ish reputation on stackoverflow

Everytime I ask a question I automatically expect it to be downvoted to hell, get marked as duplicate, "dont post your homework", etc. Doesn't really matter how well I try to phrase the question either. You can't please everyone and some of the mods go on powertrips

I treat SO simply as a potential place to get feedback and search for answers to issues I am facing. It sometimes comes at a cost of salty responses, downvotes and hostility but the pros outweigh the cons.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#224
post #59

> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place True. There's definitely an elitist undertone at Stack Overflow, and the voting system has a huge effect on that... > especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups. But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems…

> But this isn't true. No one knows anything about a user on Stack Overflow unless they explicitly announce it, and generally my perception seems to be a disdain towards newer members in general, not ones from any particular group.

Almost everyone on SO uses a variation of their real name. I suspect you are a smart enough person to know that that is far more than enough to engage in racial and sexual discrimination.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#225
I think the whole moderation thing is completely opaque. Last time I discussed this, and suggested some changes involving various "queues" and "waiting areas" for review etc - it turned out most of this already exists. There is a whole secret machinery behind the facade that somehow is hidden from users. I have been a user for years and never seen that. As far as I can see there are votes, close votes, and then questions just disappear.

When I see a poorly worded question, I might comment with some suggestions for improving the question, then immediately start writing an answer. Before I'm done with the answer, it doesn't matter whether the asker had improved his question. It's probably already closed. That is to me one of the biggest issues, The "race" nature of Stackoverflow. Did you find an easily answerable but unanswered question? Don't write a good answer, write a quick one. Then maybe improve it. If your answer is the top one, you'll get upvotes forever. If it's the best one but stuck at the bottom - no upvotes. Same with questions. If your question was poor for 5 minutes, but is later fixed? Sorry. Closed. I just I don't get why the system wants to encourage someone to write the same question again, rather than improving one?

Worse, it seems moderators fall in this trap: it seems to be a rush to find things to moderate. They have so successfully gamified the notion of moderation and cleanup that it's now also a race. A suggestion: if there is any kind of point system, statistics, badges or anything like that - hide it from the mods themselves. It just shouldn't be gamified.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#226
I had hopes based on the title, but...

> Too many people experience Stack Overflow¹ as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups.

Maybe that's a problem. I don't know.

I'd rather see them address the problem of rampant question closures for dubious reasons and people who like to treat questions like a damn medium post.

edit:

Okay so reading further that is what it's about.

What the hell does it have to do with minorities and women?

oh they told them they feel less welcome. Did they say why, cause I don't see it here.

This just feels like dressing up a very real, very broad problem as an issue for women and people of color so they can get extra bonus points by focusing on it.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#227
I actually wrote about this in 2012. It's still one of the most popular articles that I've written today: http://theexceptioncatcher.com/blog/2012/09/stackoverflow-is...

Their issues aren't due to particular identity politics. It's been this way for a while.

Original HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4494016

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#228
post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think what they mean is that when a minority goes to SO and they get a condescending response it's because of their race/ethnicity/gender. What they mean is that, since minorities might have insecurities about their ability to code because there are not that many people who look like them in the industry, when they receive a condescending response their insecurities aggravate. Therefore, SO can be consider mo…

Yours is a beautifully written and well-considered reply. As someone who has had both academic and career success (and failures), I know I am capable as a developer and able to contribute meaningfully to technical discussions. As a person of color, however, I have also experienced harassment by police, suspicious looks from shop owners, and outright hostility from drunken young men. So, whenever I encounter what appe…

> It's sort of like being bullied in elementary school, and then high school, and then college, and then as a working adult. You never outgrow the bullying. Indeed, the bullying seems to get worse as one matures and loses the youthful physical characteristics which people often read as non-threatening.

It's not just the appearance of the people who bullies you. Bullying forces you to become more closed, and changes you fundamentally while you learn to resist it. Unfortunately, resisting bullying needs one to unlearn "inherent (baseline) trust" when meeting with new people, and unlearn "implicit trust" which is reinforced with the duration of civilized communication and relationships, because bullying can come from the least expected person at most unsuspected time.

Also, continuous bullying warps one's perception about discussion. Any sign of escalation causes any bullying victim to just change the subject and feel bad about itself, because bullying starts with (generally intentional) disagreement, then this disagreement is used for a basis for physical or psychological bullying. Bullied people may not hate from themselves, but they cannot be content with themselves either. They always think that something is wrong with them, and feel powerless to correct it, because continued bullying is only possible when the victim is bullied regardless of his/her character, intention, behavior or capacity.

Prolonged bullying really leaves deep wounds like trust issues, complete lack of self confidence, fear of communication and feelings of inferiority. These wounds are very hard to heal, because as time passes and one grows up, society thinks that these issues are over and doesn't care. Also, people don't seek help since these features are considered part of the character and deemed fixed after a certain age, but they are not.

Good friends, and a really caring person can change everything if the person wants to heal. It's hard, but not impossible.

How do I know this? Because I'm bullied for 10 years straight.

Edit: Clarify sentences.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look at it from the other side. The person who is getting mean comments tells someone at SO about it (maybe via a survey). Then the SO admins notice that in the surveys women are overrepresented in the population of "people who complain about hostility". Perhaps minorities already get enough abuse and hostility every day on meatspace, so they are less tolerant of even minor hostility over the Internet. Since they hav…

Or: Our culture encourages women and minorities to speak up. White men are expected to endure abuse in silence. Consider how much attention complaints from women and minorities receive, and how little attention (and how much hostility) complaints from white men receive (unless those men are individually powerful, of course). People tend to repeat actions that are effective, so women and minorities learn to speak up,…

Right. So let's not do that. Instead of waiting for minorities to speak up, you should complain right away when an online environment turns toxic.

Since we were not aware until today that minorities received more hostility on SO, that means users really don't know other users' gender and ethnicity, so it's not like anyone will call you a sissy girl for speaking up.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#230

From the linked article: > Too many people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups Breaking that down... "...people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place..." This is obvious just by looking at the discussions that happen here, or, even by observing the SO-related memes that bubble up to the top of Red…

Are you saying that Stack Overflow is lying about the response from people who belong to marginalized groups? From the article: > Many people, especially those in marginalized groups do feel less welcome. We know because they tell us. It may not not stand out to you, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Back in the '90s after the Gulf War, many veterans started coming down with weird symptoms, eventually termed "Gulf War Syndrome." Some of these were quite real, but studies found the Gulf War veterans were, on the whole, healthier than the general population. But the guys who served there were convinced of it, and it made them pretty miserable to think they were sick and the government was covering it up.

When you tell someone they're sick, or unwelcome, or subject to bias, and especially if you're a neutral source, they're liable to believe you. The mind is incredibly suggestible.

So how much of these feelings are because we keep telling people that racism and other issues are a problem? I understand the impulse to not dismiss the problem, but it seems like feeling like you're surrounded by racists has to be almost as bad as the real thing.

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