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Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

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Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#141

Post by superkuh »

commandlinefan wrote: post #114
weberc2 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like your explanation--I hadn't thought of it and it's less cynical/more charitable than the obvious alternative (virtue signaling). But wouldn't the same be true of anyone with heightened insecurities? Why highlight minorities?

Well, the implication is still that hostility is somehow less serious or meaningful when directed at white men... I think you can imagine why that would make us uncomfortable.

Or worse, they're implying that minorities and women are all insecure and thin skinned which is the very behavior and thinking they're ostensibly trying to prevent.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#142

Post by weberc2 »

retbull wrote: post #69
weberc2 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like your explanation--I hadn't thought of it and it's less cynical/more charitable than the obvious alternative (virtue signaling). But wouldn't the same be true of anyone with heightened insecurities? Why highlight minorities?

Because the community doesn't identify with them? Specific insecurities isn't something that can be addressed at a platform level but general ones like "am I a member of the group of programmers because I am black/female/gay/trans" can be better targeted. So they probably won't help everyone by doing this but they can help a large group of unserved people.

We don't need to stop at group-level insecurities, we can just be kinder and more welcoming to everyone, thereby addressing _all_ insecurities. This has the added bonus of dodging the entirely unnecessary, divisive, and toxic political fights about which groups are the most victimized.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#144

Post by s73v3r_ »

gthtjtkt wrote: post #80
metalliqaz wrote: post #19

From the linked article: > Too many people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups Breaking that down... "...people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place..." This is obvious just by looking at the discussions that happen here, or, even by observing the SO-related memes that bubble up to the top of Red…

> justifying like this strikes me as pointless virtue signaling. Agree 100%. This part is especially troubling: > Feelings have no “technically correct.” They’re just what the feeler is telling you. When someone tells you how they feel, you can pack up your magnifying glass and clue kit, cuz that’s the answer. If I say "The sky is blue" and you say "That's offensive to people who aren't blue", you're just wrong. End…

"If I say "The sky is blue" and you say "That's offensive to people who aren't blue", you're just wrong. End of story."

That's not even close to the situation at hand.

"People are practically competing to see who can be the most offended."

Aren't you, just now, being offended that people are, not even really being offended at things, but really at trying to listen to people saying that they don't feel welcome, and trying to address that? Why is trying to make a more welcoming and open community such a sin?

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#145

Post by legostormtroopr »

asdsa5325 wrote: post #25

I've never seen minorities being mistreated on stack overflow. Does anyone have any examples?

I don’t believe SO has a field for race, so unless you put it in your profile or username I doubt anyone is even aware what colour you are or country you’re from.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#146

Post by cpburns2009 »

ggregoire wrote: post #61

I've been an active user for 7 years… and I lived my very first case of moderator abuse last week. A moderator closed a 1.5 year old question[1] with 20 upvotes, 25 stars, 9000 views and an answer at 28 upvotes without any vote or consultation, because it was too broad for him. StackOverflow has all the tools to allow the users to moderate the platform by themselves, kinda democratically. From my experience, it works…

This will be the downfall of Stack Overflow eventually. The rules for question and answers try to be objective and specific, but they end up being too strict and are making the site less useful over time.

What they should do is allow broad, general, subjective questions. That would allow for answers with general guidance instead of directly answering a broad question. It would also allow a clueless person to get some direction. When you're working with an unfamiliar technology, you frequently don't even know what to ask.

BTW: You can ask a question about it on meta, but based on your question I think the "too broad" closure is technically correct based upon the rules and how they're enforced.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#147

Post by dfundako »

chronomex wrote: post #119
gthtjtkt wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> justifying like this strikes me as pointless virtue signaling. Agree 100%. This part is especially troubling: > Feelings have no “technically correct.” They’re just what the feeler is telling you. When someone tells you how they feel, you can pack up your magnifying glass and clue kit, cuz that’s the answer. If I say "The sky is blue" and you say "That's offensive to people who aren't blue", you're just wrong. End…

That's not what they said though. They said "if you want to know if someone feels welcome, and you ask them, and they say they don't feel welcome, then you're done researching whether or not they feel welcome".

You are right. What it seems like a lot of people in these comments are saying is that the question perhaps should not stop at "Do you feel welcome?" because that only explores feelings of one side, which is highly subjective. If you invite someone into your house, they come in with muddy shoes and make a mess even though you had a sign at the door asking them to please wipe their feet, they might feel unwelcome when you ask them to go back, read the sign, and take off their shoes. The invitee might be offended, but the homeowner is justified and their feelings and the entire situation need to be considered. It is not "End of Discussion" once someone is offended.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#148

Post by Pulcinella »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #64

The weird thing about SO is that it's not for answering questions asked by users. It's for pre-emptively answering questions that people might search for later. I know that sounds like a meaningless distinction, but questions can be (and often are) closed for being too specific. Like, "this question is well-researched and well-presented, but you're not allowed to ask it here because it's unlikely to come up for anyon…

Yes there definitely seems to be a very bizarre criteria for questions that I have never been able to parse. I often see questions closed as duplicates of another, when they are definitely not. As you said, I have come across exact questions that I have had, but they were closed three years ago as being too specific. Questions will be marked closed as being “too opinion based” when it’s a question like “why are singletons considered something that should be avoided? Can someone provide me an example of a situation in which using one would be bad?”

I feel like the main goal of SO is to close questions without answering them unless someone sneaks in a good answer before it’s closed.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#149

Post by manigandham »

mistersquid wrote: post #85
fidels wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think what they mean is that when a minority goes to SO and they get a condescending response it's because of their race/ethnicity/gender. What they mean is that, since minorities might have insecurities about their ability to code because there are not that many people who look like them in the industry, when they receive a condescending response their insecurities aggravate. Therefore, SO can be consider mo…

Yours is a beautifully written and well-considered reply. As someone who has had both academic and career success (and failures), I know I am capable as a developer and able to contribute meaningfully to technical discussions. As a person of color, however, I have also experienced harassment by police, suspicious looks from shop owners, and outright hostility from drunken young men. So, whenever I encounter what appe…

How does that work if the usernames are anonymous? Saying you feel targeted does not mean you are being targeted.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#150

Post by Someone1234 »

Karunamon wrote: post #92
weberc2 wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that SO has an arrogance problem and the diversity appeal is pandering, but the "trash fire" characterization is too hyperbolic. The site is still immensely useful if suboptimal.

SO is a trash fire that has some really great content down in the basement, [beware of leopard metaphor elided]. But the problem is the people on the ground floor that the average new user will run into are, to put not too fine a point on it, a buncha jerks. Great place for finding answers to older common questions, really awful place for asking new ones.

> Great place for finding answers to older common questions, really awful place for asking new ones.

It might just be me, but I've found it substantially harder to find good Q/As on SO for newer topics and frameworks. You ask about a technology which existed in 2014 and there are high quality detailed posts all about it, with different viewpoints, upsides/downsides, etc. But you do the same with a technology popularized in 2017 (and I'm talking highly popular stuff) and yet slim pickings from SO.

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