Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

stackoverflow.blog

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

131–140 of 739 posts

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#131

Post by jsmeaton »

nanis wrote: post #57
minimaxir wrote: post #5

As relevant context, the impetus for this post was likely this Medium article + initial tweet, which received replies from SO leadership: https://medium.com/@Aprilw/suffering-on-stack-overflow-c4641... As an aside, if anyone has a good heuristic to identify bad behavior on Stack Overflow, I'd be interested in looking into it since SO data is public. (please do not suggest "build an AI to identify toxic comments")

Here's something she complains about (she posted a screenshot of a comment): "If the error says line 49, it tells you exactly where the problem lies. If you post 7 lines of code here, we clearly cannot tell you what the problem is in line 49." [1] I see nothing wrong with that. As luck would have it, today some random stranger recognized me from my Stackoverflow profile at a Panera and asked me to help him debug his…

Here’s a slightly different response that is hopefully more welcoming.

“The error message says the problem is on line 49 but you haven’t shown that line in your example code. Can you please show the code referred to on line 49 and the surrounding code for context?”

I think power users on SO are frustrated by newer users not learning the rules and not helping themselves. But if you respond with kindness you’re teaching somebody (and that’s what answerers are there to do!) how to better contribute in future.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#132

Post by danmaz74 »

minimaxir wrote: post #5

As relevant context, the impetus for this post was likely this Medium article + initial tweet, which received replies from SO leadership: https://medium.com/@Aprilw/suffering-on-stack-overflow-c4641... As an aside, if anyone has a good heuristic to identify bad behavior on Stack Overflow, I'd be interested in looking into it since SO data is public. (please do not suggest "build an AI to identify toxic comments")

Thanks for the background, at least with this the reference to women and minorities becomes easier to understand.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#133

Post by dang »

nurettin wrote: post #6
homero wrote: post #2

I didn't feel welcome the few times I tried answering questions

Like you currently can't vote on HN?

(The GP comment has been edited in a way that makes some of the replies, like this one, make less sense.)

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#134

Post by Someone1234 »

dfundako wrote: post #112
lukev wrote: post #11

> Feelings have no “technically correct.” They’re just what the feeler is telling you. When someone tells you how they feel, you can pack up your magnifying glass and clue kit, cuz that’s the answer. You’re done. This is such an important point and missed so often by technical types. Impressed to hear it stated so clearly here.

SO could make a site with all the same content, downvotes disabled, comments disabled, and all flags disabled. You would also get random upvotes to reinforce that your question was good. That would make everyone feel safe and appreciated since they are unable to see any negative comments towards them and their question.

I bet that will float higher in Google than the current SO since the questions will be more specific to your query and newer (since no "dupe" flags on every second or third question asked).

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#135

Post by legostormtroopr »

minimaxir wrote: post #5

As relevant context, the impetus for this post was likely this Medium article + initial tweet, which received replies from SO leadership: https://medium.com/@Aprilw/suffering-on-stack-overflow-c4641... As an aside, if anyone has a good heuristic to identify bad behavior on Stack Overflow, I'd be interested in looking into it since SO data is public. (please do not suggest "build an AI to identify toxic comments")

So it’s a protection racket then?

Some highly visible CEO of a developer community improvement startup pointed out some mean SO comments towards anonymous newcomers, then said those anonymous newcomers are actually women, so therefore SO is in fact sexist to its very core.

But if SO works with her company, she can help them not get called online by people like her. It’s literally a mob-style protection scam.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#136

Post by lakechfoma »

fidels wrote: post #38
metalliqaz wrote: post #19

From the linked article: > Too many people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups Breaking that down... "...people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place..." This is obvious just by looking at the discussions that happen here, or, even by observing the SO-related memes that bubble up to the top of Red…

I don't think what they mean is that when a minority goes to SO and they get a condescending response it's because of their race/ethnicity/gender. What they mean is that, since minorities might have insecurities about their ability to code because there are not that many people who look like them in the industry, when they receive a condescending response their insecurities aggravate. Therefore, SO can be consider mo…

Also I feel like SO discourages any kind of personality showing, which in turn makes the place feel like it is occupied by a legion of "Zuckerbots". Not exactly an inclusive place for people who are proud of their identity and that identity strongly differs from "young cis hetero white male".

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#137

Post by wwweston »

commandlinefan wrote: post #78
wwweston wrote: post #68

For everybody who's questioning the premise that there is some kind of special hostility to newbies, women, PoCs and others, consider this: * How would you know whether there's a difference between the experience of these groups and the baseline level of friction lots of people outside those groups experience? * For the sake of argument, assume for a moment that there is no difference, and what those who feel singled…

It just seems strange to say that a universal hostility is somehow worse on, say, women, than it is on everybody, given that they're admitting it's universal.

FWIW, it's possible both for hostility to be universal and for it to be harder on some subgroup if either (a) that subgroup tends to be socialized in such a way that they're less equipped to deal with/push back on hostility or (b) that subgroup tends to be more agreeable or threatened by hostility by natural temperament.

But overall... it doesn't matter much to me. Reducing universal hostility seems like a positive goal no matter what. Even reducing localized hostility that I'm not subject to means that the potential pool of contributors who might be able to help me or others with problems on SO is larger.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#138

Post by kristianc »

herogreen wrote: post #109
warent wrote: post #45

I've experienced a form of hostility in StackOverflow just recently--as in a couple of days ago. On a whim, I visited the website and answered a couple questions, something I'd never done before. I realized it was actually a lot of fun, so I started rapidly answering the all JavaScript questions I could as they were asked. Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to…

I personally very much like SO. I have However a friend of mine (that I believe as a better level in programming than me) has the same feeling of "bizzare community" that you have, so I know that the issue is complex. That said I really have zero ideas about what they could do to improve the way they are seen by everyone without breaking the way the site currently works. Have you heard about the term "help vampire" ?…

I wonder if there's a bit of "5 Whys" going on here.

Most of the times I end up on Stack Overflow, I arrive via Google. I usually have to check for around 5 answers before I find one that hasn't been locked as "not constructive" or for some other arbitrary reason.

Is it any wonder that people find it easier to ask their own questions? The name "help vampire" is so telling of how SO mods see themselves (as arbiters and gatekeepers of all that is good against the raging unwashed hordes) and a symptom of the problem.

Don't aspire malice / incompetence to something that may well have a root cause within SO itself.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#140

Post by grzm »

ldiracdelta wrote: post #125
hguhghuff wrote: post #106

So much could be fixed simply by removing downvoting, which is no different to a virtual slap in the face or shout of abuse. SO already has a variety of mechanisms for identifying issues with questions, why does it also allow people to yell random abuse without explanation via downvotes? The most disheartening, but completely expected, result of posting a question is that it will be very rapidly downvoted...not welco…

Sneering comments from neckbeards are worse than downvotes to me. Some days are just Monday and you're not on your game, but that doesn't stop the neckbeards from trying to light you on fire, despite the fact that you spent 30 minutes massaging the question or half a day agonizing about asking the question. You know the neckbeards are lurking in their basements.

> "Sneering comments from neckbeards"

Condescension, like any other dismissal, can be rough and is definitely detrimental to communication. That said, I encourage you to be the change you want to see. Name calling as you've done here, and snark, as you've done elsewhere in this thread, similarly degrade conversation and communication.

Post reply on HN