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Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

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Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#121

Post by lstyls »

notatoad wrote: post #84
lainga wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same situation as Wikipedia: Absolute power corrupts absolutely - but so does a small, petty amount.

I think it's significant though that both wikipedia and stack overflow, despite being ruled by petty assholes weilding the smallest amount of power in seemingly the stupidest way possible, have become two of the most valuable references in existence. Do toxic communities produce better content?

Not according to the linked post, at least:

> Let’s reject the false dichotomy between quality and kindness. Quality matters because it means posts can help more people. But a larger, more diverse community produces better artifacts, not worse ones. We need to stop justifying condescension with the pursuit of quality, and we need better tools and queues to help power users trying to keep quality high.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#122

Post by FussyZeus »

notatoad wrote: post #84
lainga wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same situation as Wikipedia: Absolute power corrupts absolutely - but so does a small, petty amount.

I think it's significant though that both wikipedia and stack overflow, despite being ruled by petty assholes weilding the smallest amount of power in seemingly the stupidest way possible, have become two of the most valuable references in existence. Do toxic communities produce better content?

I would argue there are way too many variables in that question to present a strong argument either way. One thing I will say on it though is how much of our humanity are we ready to sacrifice on the altar of this mythical "meritocracy" that every online community, especially those built on or around code, seems to aim for?

And how long until we're ready to confront the fact that a lot of these meritocracies strangely produce very similar "top contributors" in terms of demographics, i.e. white, straight men?

I'm not getting into either side of it, I'm just saying that you have to admit it's an astonishing coincidence that online communities, started by, moderated by, largely inhabited by, and currently operated by white men seemingly always have a cadre of white men on the top as the "most valuable contributors" and nobody ever seems to wonder if all those things are connected.

Maybe the fears of POC/women are invalid. Maybe it's all a big damn misunderstanding. But I don't think it's right to have white men deciding if it is or not, and I don't think the best damn catalog of coding answers on the planet means a thing if everyone who isn't part of the in-crowd is too damn terrified to ask a question of it.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#123

Post by crispyambulance »

inostia wrote: post #77
ajross wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cannot recall ever, even once, seeing someone's race, sex, or orientation being mocked or even mentioned. If all you're doing is googling for mature, well-curated answers, then you're not seeing this. Go post a "dumb question" and see how you're treated. And the contention isn't that people are being deliberately mocked, it's that they don't feel welcome, which is a different thing. So... how might a woman (or wh…

The one thing I appreciate about SO is that its users aren't afraid to call out dumb questions for what they are. Seriously, the majority of new questions _are_ dumb, or at least misunderstand the point of SO being a canonical source for generalized questions relating to CS/programming. Consider this recent question: "Should I start edx cs50 course before any other JavaScript course, or in the middle, or after?" This…

    > the point of SO being a canonical source for generalized questions relating to CS/programming.
NO.

The point of SO is NOT to be a "canonical source for generalized questions [and answers] relating to CS/Programming".

In fact, if you ask a "generalized question" it will be smacked down as "too broad". If you ask a CS question, it will be downvoted as off-topic.

SO is a place to ask certain kinds of very specific and answerable questions. Anything outside of that narrow band (hell, even most stuff that's perfect appropriate) gets smugly dismissed by petty assholes.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#124

Post by gfody »

minimaxir wrote: post #5

As relevant context, the impetus for this post was likely this Medium article + initial tweet, which received replies from SO leadership: https://medium.com/@Aprilw/suffering-on-stack-overflow-c4641... As an aside, if anyone has a good heuristic to identify bad behavior on Stack Overflow, I'd be interested in looking into it since SO data is public. (please do not suggest "build an AI to identify toxic comments")

A simple heuristic would be to search for the word "please" - I'd bet it's almost never used to be polite and instead used to veil rude comments.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#125

Post by ldiracdelta »

hguhghuff wrote: post #106

So much could be fixed simply by removing downvoting, which is no different to a virtual slap in the face or shout of abuse. SO already has a variety of mechanisms for identifying issues with questions, why does it also allow people to yell random abuse without explanation via downvotes? The most disheartening, but completely expected, result of posting a question is that it will be very rapidly downvoted...not welco…

Sneering comments from neckbeards are worse than downvotes to me. Some days are just Monday and you're not on your game, but that doesn't stop the neckbeards from trying to light you on fire, despite the fact that you spent 30 minutes massaging the question or half a day agonizing about asking the question. You know the neckbeards are lurking in their basements.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#126

Post by s73v3r_ »

inostia wrote: post #77
ajross wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cannot recall ever, even once, seeing someone's race, sex, or orientation being mocked or even mentioned. If all you're doing is googling for mature, well-curated answers, then you're not seeing this. Go post a "dumb question" and see how you're treated. And the contention isn't that people are being deliberately mocked, it's that they don't feel welcome, which is a different thing. So... how might a woman (or wh…

The one thing I appreciate about SO is that its users aren't afraid to call out dumb questions for what they are. Seriously, the majority of new questions _are_ dumb, or at least misunderstand the point of SO being a canonical source for generalized questions relating to CS/programming. Consider this recent question: "Should I start edx cs50 course before any other JavaScript course, or in the middle, or after?" This…

There are far, far more constructive ways to educate the asker of such a question than to outright tell them they're stupid. Especially because, while such a question might not be the most constructive, it being there doesn't hurt anyone at all.

It doesn't cost anything to be nice and to try and make the community feel more welcoming.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#127

Post by kardos »

ceejayoz wrote: post #7
homero wrote: post #2

I didn't feel welcome the few times I tried answering questions

I'm kinda baffled by this complaint. [edit: OP has completely changed their post.] I'd think most new SO users are looking for help or a solution to a problem. Why was not being able to vote yet so upsetting you abandoned the resource?

I read OP's point as a new user might want to hit the vote in the "thanks, this solved my problem" sense, but gets a rather surly "your vote is denied until you demonstrate that you are worthy" response. Entirely a relevant criticism given that we're discussing SO hostility here.

Edit: OP changed comment while I was writing this; leaving it anyway

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#128

Post by m_myers »

ggregoire wrote: post #61

I've been an active user for 7 years… and I lived my very first case of moderator abuse last week. A moderator closed a 1.5 year old question[1] with 20 upvotes, 25 stars, 9000 views and an answer at 28 upvotes without any vote or consultation, because it was too broad for him. StackOverflow has all the tools to allow the users to moderate the platform by themselves, kinda democratically. From my experience, it works…

You can either flag for another moderator to take a look, or (better) bring it up publicly on https://meta.stackoverflow.com. Most times you'll get an answer from the moderator in question.

(Also, that's a... very broad definition of "moderator abuse". The question is still there and no one can post an answer to compete with yours if it's closed.)

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#129

Post by nanis »

ggregoire wrote: post #61

I've been an active user for 7 years… and I lived my very first case of moderator abuse last week. A moderator closed a 1.5 year old question[1] with 20 upvotes, 25 stars, 9000 views and an answer at 28 upvotes without any vote or consultation, because it was too broad for him. StackOverflow has all the tools to allow the users to moderate the platform by themselves, kinda democratically. From my experience, it works…

> And there is no way to report/flag/discuss a moderator actions on Stack Overflow.

Yes there is. See Meta. E.g., see https://meta.stackoverflow.com/search?q=why+was+my+question+...

You can also flag your own question/answer.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#130

Post by kbenson »

notatoad wrote: post #84
lainga wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same situation as Wikipedia: Absolute power corrupts absolutely - but so does a small, petty amount.

I think it's significant though that both wikipedia and stack overflow, despite being ruled by petty assholes weilding the smallest amount of power in seemingly the stupidest way possible, have become two of the most valuable references in existence. Do toxic communities produce better content?

I can see it the other way too. Good content may lead to certain types of toxic communities. Possibly by encouraging people to police content more in an effort to "keep quality high/from falling", and putting artificially high bars on contributing.
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