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Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

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Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#111

Post by tbodt »

Confiks wrote: post #86
warent wrote: post #45

I've experienced a form of hostility in StackOverflow just recently--as in a couple of days ago. On a whim, I visited the website and answered a couple questions, something I'd never done before. I realized it was actually a lot of fun, so I started rapidly answering the all JavaScript questions I could as they were asked. Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to…

> Suddenly another, even higher ranking person, deleted all the comments and locked my answer, noting that the discussion had stopped being productive. After that, my answers were left alone with no more meta criticism. I can't see from your story if the "even higher scoring person" ever declared his intentions to you, which he probably should, but it can be a pretty routine moderation action on forum sites in genera…

The "even higher scoring person" was definitely a moderator, only they have the power to delete comments and lock posts.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#112

Post by dfundako »

lukev wrote: post #11

> Feelings have no “technically correct.” They’re just what the feeler is telling you. When someone tells you how they feel, you can pack up your magnifying glass and clue kit, cuz that’s the answer. You’re done. This is such an important point and missed so often by technical types. Impressed to hear it stated so clearly here.

SO could make a site with all the same content, downvotes disabled, comments disabled, and all flags disabled. You would also get random upvotes to reinforce that your question was good. That would make everyone feel safe and appreciated since they are unable to see any negative comments towards them and their question.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#113

Post by mental1896 »

warent wrote: post #45

I've experienced a form of hostility in StackOverflow just recently--as in a couple of days ago. On a whim, I visited the website and answered a couple questions, something I'd never done before. I realized it was actually a lot of fun, so I started rapidly answering the all JavaScript questions I could as they were asked. Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to…

I think you've touched on what's missing that could make it a more personable community--better communication.

I posted an image as a part of an answer once and it was removed with the reason "don't use third party image hosts". Thing is, I used i.stack.imgur.com which is the only method provided in the answer form on the site! I knew the user who did it but since my answer had been deleted, I had no way to contact him for any sort of appeal. It was a while before I tried contributing to the site again.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#114

Post by commandlinefan »

weberc2 wrote: post #48
fidels wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think what they mean is that when a minority goes to SO and they get a condescending response it's because of their race/ethnicity/gender. What they mean is that, since minorities might have insecurities about their ability to code because there are not that many people who look like them in the industry, when they receive a condescending response their insecurities aggravate. Therefore, SO can be consider mo…

I like your explanation--I hadn't thought of it and it's less cynical/more charitable than the obvious alternative (virtue signaling). But wouldn't the same be true of anyone with heightened insecurities? Why highlight minorities?

Well, the implication is still that hostility is somehow less serious or meaningful when directed at white men... I think you can imagine why that would make us uncomfortable.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#115

Post by saint_fiasco »

notatoad wrote: post #84
lainga wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same situation as Wikipedia: Absolute power corrupts absolutely - but so does a small, petty amount.

I think it's significant though that both wikipedia and stack overflow, despite being ruled by petty assholes weilding the smallest amount of power in seemingly the stupidest way possible, have become two of the most valuable references in existence. Do toxic communities produce better content?

If there is a correlation, it's more likely that the sort of petty asshole who likes to feel important will prefer to invest more effort in a site that is valuable.

So the more valuable a site becomes, the more it will attract highly motivated but slightly sociopathic moderators.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#116

Post by TravelTechGuy »

It's funny reading this article after seeing one of my questions from 2011 edited today, to remove the word "Thanks!" from the bottom.

I've been on SO since 2009. I can confirm the community is getting harsher, less patient, and more exact. HOWEVER, I can see the other side. I see tons of questions that are not fit to be on the site: one-liners, opinions, "help me with my homework", and utter spam. Not to mention people who clearly did not search the site, or even Google (many of Google's results come from SO), and ask a simple question asked a thousand times before. Bad questions and answers will stay online indefinitely, coming up in your future Google searches.

There has to be a balance. Comments should be less hostile, but posters should vet their questions before asking.

Perhaps the suggested structured form is the right way to go. If people will take some time to document their effort, and code, they'll gain appreciation for the time spent by someone reading their question and providing an answer.

PS: +1 on using Zuckerbot in an article not about Facebook :)

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#117

Post by lakechfoma »

mistersquid wrote: post #85
fidels wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think what they mean is that when a minority goes to SO and they get a condescending response it's because of their race/ethnicity/gender. What they mean is that, since minorities might have insecurities about their ability to code because there are not that many people who look like them in the industry, when they receive a condescending response their insecurities aggravate. Therefore, SO can be consider mo…

Yours is a beautifully written and well-considered reply. As someone who has had both academic and career success (and failures), I know I am capable as a developer and able to contribute meaningfully to technical discussions. As a person of color, however, I have also experienced harassment by police, suspicious looks from shop owners, and outright hostility from drunken young men. So, whenever I encounter what appe…

Well said. I didn't understand this at all until the post yesterday "Walking While Black". Essays like that and comments like this are eye openers and should be spread wide to people of privilege. Perspective is powerful

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#118

Post by gthtjtkt »

lakechfoma wrote: post #97
gthtjtkt wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it more offensive that you're saying minorities are insecure and/or oversensitive?

Read the comment from mistersquid https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16935683 to understand the point

That comment doesn't contradict my point at all. All it says is "Someone who has been bullied may interpret future slights as more of the same bullying."

That has absolutely nothing to do with race or gender, and I still think it's for more insulting to imply that people in specific demographics are more sensitive or insecure.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#119

Post by chronomex »

gthtjtkt wrote: post #80
metalliqaz wrote: post #19

From the linked article: > Too many people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups Breaking that down... "...people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place..." This is obvious just by looking at the discussions that happen here, or, even by observing the SO-related memes that bubble up to the top of Red…

> justifying like this strikes me as pointless virtue signaling. Agree 100%. This part is especially troubling: > Feelings have no “technically correct.” They’re just what the feeler is telling you. When someone tells you how they feel, you can pack up your magnifying glass and clue kit, cuz that’s the answer. If I say "The sky is blue" and you say "That's offensive to people who aren't blue", you're just wrong. End…

That's not what they said though. They said "if you want to know if someone feels welcome, and you ask them, and they say they don't feel welcome, then you're done researching whether or not they feel welcome".

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#120

Post by pishpash »

TravelTechGuy wrote: post #116

It's funny reading this article after seeing one of my questions from 2011 edited today, to remove the word "Thanks!" from the bottom. I've been on SO since 2009. I can confirm the community is getting harsher, less patient, and more exact. HOWEVER, I can see the other side. I see tons of questions that are not fit to be on the site: one-liners, opinions, "help me with my homework", and utter spam. Not to mention peo…

Ratings already take care of curating. Why do you need assholes to curate?
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