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Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

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Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#101

Post by mathattack »

lainga wrote: post #65
warent wrote: post #45

I've experienced a form of hostility in StackOverflow just recently--as in a couple of days ago. On a whim, I visited the website and answered a couple questions, something I'd never done before. I realized it was actually a lot of fun, so I started rapidly answering the all JavaScript questions I could as they were asked. Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to…

Same situation as Wikipedia: Absolute power corrupts absolutely - but so does a small, petty amount.

The fights are so big because the stakes are so small. (Also said by Kissinger about Harvard)

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#102

Post by commandlinefan »

bdcravens wrote: post #43
dionian wrote: post #12

has anyone here ever seen women or people of color treated poorly on SO? I haven't but maybe I'm not paying enough attention

I have not, but I think the point they're trying to make (but don't really agree with) is that of cultural norms, or more specifically, the cultural norm of overly-assertive, insensitive nerds (most of which who are younger white males), so that it's an unwelcoming environment to outsiders.

But most actual programmers are Indian, not young white males...

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#103

Post by treis »

Ajedi32 wrote: post #58
jakelazaroff wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that Stack Overflow is lying about the response from people who belong to marginalized groups? From the article: > Many people, especially those in marginalized groups do feel less welcome. We know because they tell us. It may not not stand out to you, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

If that's true, I'd be really interested in knowing why. It's pretty hard to fix a problem if you don't even know what's causing it in the first place. (Especially since we've pretty much ruled out the possibility of racial or sexual discrimination.)

People can experience the same thing and have different reactions to it. Someone that already feels inadequate or like they don't belong as a programmer are likely to have a more negative reaction to SO's nonsense.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#104

Post by ceejayoz »

legostormtroopr wrote: post #75
ajross wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I cannot recall ever, even once, seeing someone's race, sex, or orientation being mocked or even mentioned. If all you're doing is googling for mature, well-curated answers, then you're not seeing this. Go post a "dumb question" and see how you're treated. And the contention isn't that people are being deliberately mocked, it's that they don't feel welcome, which is a different thing. So... how might a woman (or wh…

A “dumb question” is mocked because it’s dumb. No one knows who you are online, for example nothing about my username gives away my sex, race, religion or sexual orientation. If some with a pseudonym like mine was mocked for asking a dumb question, their minority status would have nothing to do with it.

The manner in which it's mocked may disproportionately impact some groups. If (for example) minorities have higher levels of imposter syndrome, that sort of "you're an idiot" mockery might knock disproportionate numbers of minorities out of the field early on.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#105

Post by ctdonath »

jakelazaroff wrote: post #42
metalliqaz wrote: post #19

From the linked article: > Too many people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups Breaking that down... "...people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place..." This is obvious just by looking at the discussions that happen here, or, even by observing the SO-related memes that bubble up to the top of Red…

Are you saying that Stack Overflow is lying about the response from people who belong to marginalized groups? From the article: > Many people, especially those in marginalized groups do feel less welcome. We know because they tell us. It may not not stand out to you, but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

Then perhaps the real data point is bias about biases: operating in a profoundly neutral forum, blind to practically any "group" indication, individual "they're thinking X of me because I'm Y" bias emerges. This is something being increasingly noticed in general, but SO's study provides an interesting control experiment precisely because there is so little indication of group categorization.

I've spent years using StackOverflow. I've never seen any expressions of bigotry. One might get a hint of "group" based on linguistic style, but never have I seen bigoted comments based thereon. If someone feels unwelcome, it's either because they just feel that way without cause, or because of the content/tone of their comments - not their "group" - elicits such response.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#106

Post by hguhghuff »

So much could be fixed simply by removing downvoting, which is no different to a virtual slap in the face or shout of abuse.

SO already has a variety of mechanisms for identifying issues with questions, why does it also allow people to yell random abuse without explanation via downvotes?

The most disheartening, but completely expected, result of posting a question is that it will be very rapidly downvoted...not welcoming at all. AND everyone gets this face slap upon posting a question, but I can see how minorities might feel that are being singled out by the sites typical negative response to pretty much all questions.

Sadly, even here on HN you can almost feel the joyful glee with which people can anonymously knock something down with downvotes and no need to explain.

Downvotes on SO should either be removed entirely, or it should cost 2 SO points to make 1 downvote.

Downvotes are nothing but pure negative, so hey, wanna remove some of the negative from SO? It’s obvious what to do.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#107

Post by the8472 »

mmd45 wrote: post #53

My issue with the site is the opposite. Asking a specific nuanced question results in a response of a) tell me what you are really trying to accomplish and i'll answer that question or b) don't do what you are doing. Don't presume I don't know what I'm doing or know the right question to ask. This happens so often and is such a time waster I hesitate to use the site. Their culture even invites it by giving it a fancy…

> Please provide a way to flag a question

You can do those with prose. Explain that you know what you're doing. Give an underlying reason that shows that your X is an X.

Answerers can only act on a) the information you provide b) heuristics they have based on seeing many other questions. If you do not provide a) then they'll have to fall back on b)

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#108

Post by ldiracdelta »

corobo wrote: post #35

Change closed due to being offtopic Honestly I just want them to noindex the questions that are closed so that they stop turning up in Google searches

I still find great results from questions that the Most Holy Keepers Of Stackoverflow Purity deem "off topic".

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#109

Post by herogreen »

warent wrote: post #45

I've experienced a form of hostility in StackOverflow just recently--as in a couple of days ago. On a whim, I visited the website and answered a couple questions, something I'd never done before. I realized it was actually a lot of fun, so I started rapidly answering the all JavaScript questions I could as they were asked. Suddenly a "higher ranking" individual started leaving comments on my answers that I needed to…

I personally very much like SO. I have However a friend of mine (that I believe as a better level in programming than me) has the same feeling of "bizzare community" that you have, so I know that the issue is complex.

That said I really have zero ideas about what they could do to improve the way they are seen by everyone without breaking the way the site currently works.

Have you heard about the term "help vampire" ? Do you know how many people how do not take 3 minutes to search ? Do you think that the number of questions will remain manageable if the bar is leveled down ? Do you know that you are encouraged to edit questions to make them more "well asked" (at least if that is humanely possible) ?

In my opinion SO is a specific tool that is very different from a forum, a chat or a mailing list. SO should not be the only tool that people have to solve their programming problems and it should not try to morph into it.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#110

Post by Someone1234 »

> We set them up for failure, and our power users have been asking us to help them for ages.

Your Power Users are the ones making SO toxic. They don't need better tools, they need to have their privileges pulled until they learn to use them responsibly.

The whole "SO is an encyclopedia not a help site" thing started this, and it encouraged a lot of "content curators" to the site, who view their role as squishing every question unless it meets their personal editorial standard (Wikipedia has this too but IS an encyclopedia!).

This post feels hollow. It is nice they're taking blame, but SO is still rotten at the core, the site needs something akin to a constitution setting out what the purpose of the site is. Everything else should flow down from the site's core purpose, not up from rules and "more Is SO a "help site for newbies" or a "encyclopedia of programming knowledge?"

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