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Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

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Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#71

Post by abainbridge »

protonimitate wrote: post #3

Glad to see an active approach is being taken. SO is a great resource and contains some of the best information on the web IRT programming. If there was only one thing I could change it would be this: If someone marks a question as duplicate, and closes, make them provide a link to the 'original' question and a brief summary as to why it is a duplicate. Closing something as duplicate and then forcing the user who sub…

Similarly I've had my questions being down-voted with no explanation. Or worse closed as "not a valid question" for no good reason.

The article suggests that the problem is that SO is too cruel to new clueless users. This isn't how it seems to me. Perfectly valid content gets down voted or closed.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#72

Post by commandlinefan »

metalliqaz wrote: post #19

From the linked article: > Too many people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups Breaking that down... "...people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place..." This is obvious just by looking at the discussions that happen here, or, even by observing the SO-related memes that bubble up to the top of Red…

Yeah, I can't see how you could be hostile to programmers but somehow _more_ hostile to programmers of a certain race without actually calling out somebody by race.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#73

Post by fabian2k »

metalliqaz wrote: post #19

From the linked article: > Too many people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups Breaking that down... "...people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place..." This is obvious just by looking at the discussions that happen here, or, even by observing the SO-related memes that bubble up to the top of Red…

Any blatant case of racism or sexism is likely to be deleted, the tools for community moderation of seriously offensive content are pretty effective. That is not necessarily fast enough for the target of the abuse to never see it, but it does make it very unlikely that regular users stumble upon this.

Deleted comments are essentially invisible to regular users, and even for deleted answers you have to go and dig to see offensive content.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#74

Post by saint_fiasco »

weberc2 wrote: post #48
fidels wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think what they mean is that when a minority goes to SO and they get a condescending response it's because of their race/ethnicity/gender. What they mean is that, since minorities might have insecurities about their ability to code because there are not that many people who look like them in the industry, when they receive a condescending response their insecurities aggravate. Therefore, SO can be consider mo…

I like your explanation--I hadn't thought of it and it's less cynical/more charitable than the obvious alternative (virtue signaling). But wouldn't the same be true of anyone with heightened insecurities? Why highlight minorities?

They probably have more data on minorities than on insecurities. Some ad networks can tell your gender and ethnicity with reasonable accuracy (especially in the aggregate). Stack Overflow might be affiliated to one of those, or use data mining algorithms similar to what they use.

They also run polls among their users, I believe. It's easier to ask about gender/race in a poll than about unspecified insecurities.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#75

Post by legostormtroopr »

ajross wrote: post #51
metalliqaz wrote: post #19

From the linked article: > Too many people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups Breaking that down... "...people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place..." This is obvious just by looking at the discussions that happen here, or, even by observing the SO-related memes that bubble up to the top of Red…

> I cannot recall ever, even once, seeing someone's race, sex, or orientation being mocked or even mentioned. If all you're doing is googling for mature, well-curated answers, then you're not seeing this. Go post a "dumb question" and see how you're treated. And the contention isn't that people are being deliberately mocked, it's that they don't feel welcome, which is a different thing. So... how might a woman (or wh…

A “dumb question” is mocked because it’s dumb. No one knows who you are online, for example nothing about my username gives away my sex, race, religion or sexual orientation.

If some with a pseudonym like mine was mocked for asking a dumb question, their minority status would have nothing to do with it.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#76

Post by poster123 »

"Too many people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups."

Must everything be about race or sex? Yeah, I am a little annoyed that so many of my questions get shot down on Stack Overflow, but other members cannot infer my sex or race from my SO handle. I am a guy from a racial group not under-represented in tech.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#77

Post by inostia »

ajross wrote: post #51
metalliqaz wrote: post #19

From the linked article: > Too many people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups Breaking that down... "...people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place..." This is obvious just by looking at the discussions that happen here, or, even by observing the SO-related memes that bubble up to the top of Red…

> I cannot recall ever, even once, seeing someone's race, sex, or orientation being mocked or even mentioned. If all you're doing is googling for mature, well-curated answers, then you're not seeing this. Go post a "dumb question" and see how you're treated. And the contention isn't that people are being deliberately mocked, it's that they don't feel welcome, which is a different thing. So... how might a woman (or wh…

The one thing I appreciate about SO is that its users aren't afraid to call out dumb questions for what they are. Seriously, the majority of new questions _are_ dumb, or at least misunderstand the point of SO being a canonical source for generalized questions relating to CS/programming.

Consider this recent question: "Should I start edx cs50 course before any other JavaScript course, or in the middle, or after?"

This person _should_ get downvoted and told that this is not an appropriate question. Hopefully they come around after a while and learn what kinds of questions are helpful for the _community_ at large. Does it suck that they feel unwelcome? Yes. But that doesn't mean users should be forced to "be nice" just because of it.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#78

Post by commandlinefan »

wwweston wrote: post #68

For everybody who's questioning the premise that there is some kind of special hostility to newbies, women, PoCs and others, consider this: * How would you know whether there's a difference between the experience of these groups and the baseline level of friction lots of people outside those groups experience? * For the sake of argument, assume for a moment that there is no difference, and what those who feel singled…

It just seems strange to say that a universal hostility is somehow worse on, say, women, than it is on everybody, given that they're admitting it's universal.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#79

Post by metalliqaz »

kadenshep wrote: post #33
metalliqaz wrote: post #19

From the linked article: > Too many people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups Breaking that down... "...people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place..." This is obvious just by looking at the discussions that happen here, or, even by observing the SO-related memes that bubble up to the top of Red…

It's almost like this was directly addressed in the article: >especially the idea that women and people of color felt particularly unwelcome. There’s a weird paradox with bias. Those of us who have privilege, but care deeply about reducing bias should be uniquely positioned to help, but we struggle the hardest to recognize that we are (unintentionally) biased ourselves And this line in your post: >pointless virtue si…

Bias is real, and privilege is real. I don't argue otherwise.

Let's be honest here. If you are able to post on SO at all, you are in the global top 10% of privilege. If you scale it down to a company, it's like the President vs a VP. I choose not to spend my energy splitting those hairs.

Re: Stack Overflow Isn’t Very Welcoming – It’s Time for That to Change

#80

Post by gthtjtkt »

metalliqaz wrote: post #19

From the linked article: > Too many people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place, especially newer coders, women, people of color, and others in marginalized groups Breaking that down... "...people experience Stack Overflow as a hostile or elitist place..." This is obvious just by looking at the discussions that happen here, or, even by observing the SO-related memes that bubble up to the top of Red…

> justifying like this strikes me as pointless virtue signaling.

Agree 100%. This part is especially troubling:

> Feelings have no “technically correct.” They’re just what the feeler is telling you. When someone tells you how they feel, you can pack up your magnifying glass and clue kit, cuz that’s the answer.

If I say "The sky is blue" and you say "That's offensive to people who aren't blue", you're just wrong. End of story.

It's sad that this is even worth saying, but that's what our micro-aggression and victimhood-obsessed society has come to. People are practically competing to see who can be the most offended.

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