Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced • Hacker News Board

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#161

Post by JoeAltmaier » Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 12:53 PM UTC

randyrand wrote: post #42

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have more sympathy for pedestrians. They go around 2-3mph. Auto traffic around 25-50. Bikes and scooters are way closer to cars than pedestrians. So, its a matter of risking the safety of cyclist, or pedestrians. No clear win there I can see.

walking 3-4, scooter 10-15, cars 25-60. each is about 3x more than the previous. But it's a stupid comparison for safety. Colliding with a scooter will rarely be fatal, regardless of the 3x. But cyclist often get killed.

Arguing "Sure bikes will hit you, but it will rarely be fatal!" is not terribly convincing. Its reasonable for pedestrians to want bikes off the sidewalk. The chance of collision is far greater.

I know its a hard statistic for bikes to swallow. There seems to be no winning for them. But that's my whole point.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#162

Post by sidlls » Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 12:58 PM UTC

rsynnott wrote: post #138

imgabe wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I tried really hard to make it clear that I am looking out for them. Apparently that was insufficient. It is made unnecessarily difficult to look out for someone who is weaving around erratically and completely oblivious to everything around them. I bike on the road. I expect cars to look out for me. Nonetheless, I take measures to make it easy for them to do that. I wear reflective gear and have lights at night. I b…

> There's absolutely no reason that someone on a sidewalk shouldn't expect that another person, whether walking or on a bike, might also need to use the sidewalk Is cycling on the sidewalk legal in your location? It isn't in most places, as far as I know.

Don't know about the parent but it's so legal in SF and the Peninsula that plenty of sidewalk spaces have sharrows (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_lane_marking) or signs indicating cyclists are allowed use of the path. These signs aren't necessary for cyclists to use the sidewalk though: we're simply allowed to unless a sign explicitly prohibits it.

Besides the point isn't that cyclists in these spaces shouldn't have to look out for pedestrians, it's that pedestrians make it hard even for other pedestrians to navigate and that perhaps an inequitable share of responsibility for observing one's surroundings exists.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#163

Post by mgbmtl » Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 1:04 PM UTC

Zanni wrote: post #75

imgabe wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bike commute. I stay on the road as much as possible, but there's parts where it's impractical. So, I get on the sidewalk, go slow, and yield to pedestrians. That said, Jesus Christ people. Take out your headphones, put your phone away, and freaking pay attention to your surroundings. People wander around like they're the baby from the Popeye cartoons expecting everything else to miraculously flow around them. Forg…

I walk commute often, and especially when I'm traveling. Sure, cars are dangerous, and bicycles are often irresponsible, but pedestrians are the worst. They'll walk four abreast, gather in large groups at chokepoints, block traffic to take photos, stop for no reason. And no one really cares because most of this bad behavior is limited to sidewalks, so it only affects other pedestrians. But it makes it damn difficult…

Cities can be made to be enjoyable. The pedestrians you describe are doing the right thing. That said, I agree, we should devote less space to inefficient cars, more space/lanes to pedestrians/cyclists/etc.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#164

Post by jschwartzi » Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 1:04 PM UTC

jateenjoshi wrote: post #87

imgabe wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. If you were biking around staring at your phone and weaving into oncoming traffic, is that someone else's fault? Being in a public space necessarily means exercising a degree of care and consideration for other people. From everyone .

> If you were biking around staring at your phone and weaving into oncoming traffic, is that someone else's fault? No, because the law states that a bike on the road with cars is equal to other vehicles and has no higher priority in regards to right of way. In contrast, a biker on a sidewalk is not considered equal to a pedestrian. In fact, it is illegal in most cases, but probably not illegal or dangerous enough to…

>In contrast, a biker on a sidewalk is not considered equal to a pedestrian. In fact, it is illegal in most cases, but probably not illegal or dangerous enough to warrant strict enforcement.

In Washington State this depends heavily on municipality and you need to know exactly which cities you're riding through. State law only says that you have the same duties and rights as a driver when on the road, and that you have the same duties and rights as a pedestrian when on the sidewalk. When I rode to work I checked all three of the cities I rode though and they all allowed bicycles on sidewalks.

I generally choose whew to ride based on the density of traffic. If nobody is on the sidewalk and the sidewalk is in good condition I'll ride on the sidewalk.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#165

Post by jschwartzi » Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 1:09 PM UTC

SmellyGeekBoy wrote: post #109

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I bike commute. I stay on the road as much as possible, but there's parts where it's impractical. So, I get on the sidewalk, go slow, and yield to pedestrians. Yeah. I bike on the sidewalk sometimes, but when I do I consider it 100% my responsibility to avoid pedestrians. They're not expecting me and they have no reason to look out for me; it's my job to go slow, watch entrances, and not scare people by blowing pas…

Where do you people live where this behaviour is legal?

It's perfectly legal in most suburbs in Washington State. It's not prohibited by state law either.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#166

Post by e40 » Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 1:20 PM UTC

yodsanklai wrote: post #99

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I bike commute. I stay on the road as much as possible, but there's parts where it's impractical. So, I get on the sidewalk, go slow, and yield to pedestrians. Yeah. I bike on the sidewalk sometimes, but when I do I consider it 100% my responsibility to avoid pedestrians. They're not expecting me and they have no reason to look out for me; it's my job to go slow, watch entrances, and not scare people by blowing pas…

Same here. If I have to cycle on the sidewalk, I go very slow and I do my best not to scare pedestrians, especially older people who don't feel safe near bikes. Unfortunately, not all cyclists are respectful and it creates tensions. I regularly get scolded by pedestrians.

I schools every cyclist I see on the sidewalk. The two cyclists that ran into me both said they didn't mean to (and didn't apologize, btw), and I use that as motivation for the scoldings.

Most of my walking is near store fronts and it is exceedingly dangerous to blow by open doors at the clip I see these cyclists doing. It is so frustrating to me to watch this.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#167

Post by vivekd » Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 1:31 PM UTC

bkor wrote: post #150

closeparen wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>"If a car could've avoided the accident" That's a pretty crucial distinction from strict liability, and is much closer to what we have in the US (at least on paper, you have a duty to avert a collision if you can, regardless of right of way). Unless you mean the most trivial sense of "you could have avoided the accident by not driving." "Needs to watch out for" is quite different from "is always at fault if it colli…

The impression I get from statement made here it actually seems to be hugely different. Too much of "should watch out", etc. It's more of a "in case cannot be proven, car is in the wrong". In practice, good luck proving that the bike was doing something weird. As result, they watch out. I don't understand your comment of "strict liability" btw. It's not black/white situation. However, in general they rule against the…

strict liability is a legal term of art that means something along the lines of "you are guilty no matter what the reason." It's used in North America can be found often in things like traffic tickets or regulatory offences. For example, if you were speeding, it doesn't matter what the reason is, for example it doesn't matter if your odometer was broken or if the posted street signs were impossible to see due to fog or whatever, all the prosecution has to prove is that you were going at a certain speed and you are automatically guilty no matter what.

The individual you are replying to was saying that comments here made it sound like strict liability for drivers and cyclists. That even if you were driving as carefully as possible, if a cyclist suddenly appears from behind a bush and cuts exactly in front of your car while you were doing 80 km an hour and you did everything humanly possible to stop and avoid him, you would still be at fault. He's saying later comments seem to suggest otherwise.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#168

Post by vivekd » Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 1:32 PM UTC

arnoooooo wrote: post #103

closeparen wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? It's the furthest thing possible from safe to do something that makes you automatically liable for any incident.

You're the one choosing to drive a dangerous vehicle, why should other people be responsible ?

Because responsibility should be based on what you do, and whether you did anything wrong, and not based solely on what mode of transportation you were using.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#169

Post by imgabe » Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 1:34 PM UTC

jateenjoshi wrote: post #87

imgabe wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree. If you were biking around staring at your phone and weaving into oncoming traffic, is that someone else's fault? Being in a public space necessarily means exercising a degree of care and consideration for other people. From everyone .

> If you were biking around staring at your phone and weaving into oncoming traffic, is that someone else's fault? No, because the law states that a bike on the road with cars is equal to other vehicles and has no higher priority in regards to right of way. In contrast, a biker on a sidewalk is not considered equal to a pedestrian. In fact, it is illegal in most cases, but probably not illegal or dangerous enough to…

Where I'm riding it is completely legal to bike on the sidewalk, so it's not something that should be unexpected.

> I consider pedestrians to have just the responsibility of paying attention to their surroundings

This is what I'm talking about. Many people cannot even be bothered to do that. If you aren't going to take an interest in your own safety, why should anyone else? The sidewalk is not the place to zone out and lose yourself in your Twitter feed.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#170

Post by bobjordan » Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 1:55 PM UTC

nrser wrote: post #154

bobjordan wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's exactly the situation in China. When you are on the sidewalk you must walk in a straight line. If you make any sudden moves to the left or right then you are liable to get run over. You can't even hear the electric scooters and drivers here go way too fast. I don't wish them on Americans.

How long you live(d) there? It freak me out at first, like many things that are different, but after getting acclimated for a few years I actually think it works out pretty well. I had to get used to the "flow" and get used to being aware. It now kinda freaks me out to be back in the US... realizing that everyone involved in traffic has their own assumptions of what is supposed/going to happen and won't necessarily b…

I've been in Shenzhen eight years now as my primary home and work location. Long enough to get trained to turn around and look before I step left or right.