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Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

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Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#151

Post by bkor »

closeparen wrote: post #144
rangibaby wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> At speed, injuring the pedestrians who get in your way is an inevitability Well, that's the point. You are supposed to be riding or driving at a speed that you can safely stop if you need to. This is the same in every country, right? > Japan is messaging that Japanese people ought to stay far, far away from bicycling unless they have particularly extreme appetite for risk. Bicycling to work or school is very common…

>stop if you need to If you're on a 45mph road and someone puts themselves in your path 10 feet ahead, no, we don't say that you should have actually been going 5mph just in case something like this was going to happen. You're required to yield at crosswalks, but there's an expectation that mutual acknowledgement between you and the pedestrian happens at a reasonable distance before the pedestrian enters the roadway.…

> If you're on a 45mph road and someone puts themselves in your path 10 feet ahead

This is why roads should be designed not to cause such a situation. If you have a pedestrian path really close to a 45mph road the design is bad. I'm not aware of anywhere having such a high speed road where a pedestrian could walk along side it (in Netherlands). Usually it's more closed off with pedestrians being banned.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#152

Post by brandonmenc »

ryanobjc wrote: post #5

I initially was bah humbugy about these scooters, but after reading an article that points out we have acres of space devoted to private automobiles, and that it really wouldn't be hard to accommodate these electric scooters, I changed my mind. They look fun, they seem more flexible than the hard-wired go-bike stations, and they don't seem super expensive. It's pretty obvious that our cities are broken, and SF needs…

> As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired of that.

Ever see an elderly pedestrian get plowed into by some 200 lb kid on a skateboard?

I used to live near and work on Mill Ave. in Tempe near ASU, which is a very congested pedestrian strip. It's also full of maniacs on bikes, scooters, and skateboards weaving in and around pedestrians at full speed, coming within inches the whole time. One false move and you'd get plowed.

Like speed with like speed, I say.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#154

Post by nrser »

bobjordan wrote: post #63
fstuff wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired of that. I strongly disagree with this. I've owned an electric scooter for over a year now and I learned real fast that it's super dangerous to ride on the sidewalk. The problem with pedestrians is that they are not looking out for scooters. People will wander into your path and depending on how fast you're going you may collide. Also you…

That's exactly the situation in China. When you are on the sidewalk you must walk in a straight line. If you make any sudden moves to the left or right then you are liable to get run over. You can't even hear the electric scooters and drivers here go way too fast. I don't wish them on Americans.

How long you live(d) there? It freak me out at first, like many things that are different, but after getting acclimated for a few years I actually think it works out pretty well. I had to get used to the "flow" and get used to being aware.

It now kinda freaks me out to be back in the US... realizing that everyone involved in traffic has their own assumptions of what is supposed/going to happen and won't necessarily be looking around all the time at what's actually going on, and I have to guess and premeditate that for everyone.

It's not a big problems when density is small and there is only one significant traffic element (cars) that's relatively predictable, but if the US is going to scale it's cities they're going to have to figure out how to deal with how to increase traffic density, and it doesn't seem very feasible to add more car roads and sidewalks in metropolitan areas (let's not touch on subways for the moment because that's what communism or Euro-effeminism or just too damn hard or whatever).

It's pretty easy to fit more people on those streets, all ya have to do is:

1. Slow down 2. Look around 3. Take a bit of the chip off the shoulders

Which I feel like all pretty much fly in the face of everything back-to-back World War champions cherish (and great prospects for this upcoming season!).

But I think the point of the article was "look both ways before you cross the street" was total bullshit when it was introduced... and now it's dogma. I don't necessarily wish metropolitan progress and growth on Americans, but I guess I kinda secretly hope for it.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#155

Post by zip1234 »

arnoooooo wrote: post #103
closeparen wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? It's the furthest thing possible from safe to do something that makes you automatically liable for any incident.

You're the one choosing to drive a dangerous vehicle, why should other people be responsible ?

The reason is that you should be responsible if you are indeed responsible: Insurance fraud is very real. See https://gizmodo.com/people-throw-themselves-at-cars-for-mone...

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#156

Post by andygates »

imgabe wrote: post #31
fstuff wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired of that. I strongly disagree with this. I've owned an electric scooter for over a year now and I learned real fast that it's super dangerous to ride on the sidewalk. The problem with pedestrians is that they are not looking out for scooters. People will wander into your path and depending on how fast you're going you may collide. Also you…

I bike commute. I stay on the road as much as possible, but there's parts where it's impractical. So, I get on the sidewalk, go slow, and yield to pedestrians. That said, Jesus Christ people. Take out your headphones, put your phone away, and freaking pay attention to your surroundings. People wander around like they're the baby from the Popeye cartoons expecting everything else to miraculously flow around them. Forg…

> That said, Jesus Christ people

Pedestrians aren't going to change, they never have and it's just silly to assume they will. That's why I'm a tedious vehicular cyclist. Road is best, fastest, safest, and least infuriating.

I guess I'd have to be a vehicular scoot. Vrimmm!

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#157

Post by on_and_off »

ryanobjc wrote: post #5

I initially was bah humbugy about these scooters, but after reading an article that points out we have acres of space devoted to private automobiles, and that it really wouldn't be hard to accommodate these electric scooters, I changed my mind. They look fun, they seem more flexible than the hard-wired go-bike stations, and they don't seem super expensive. It's pretty obvious that our cities are broken, and SF needs…

I moved to SF 6 months ago.

Compared to my previous city (Paris), transportation in SF is shockingly poor.

That was actually a big surprise to me. It is so much easier to plan a city built recently compared to old Europe where you have a mess of old tiny roads you can't get rid of.

So I would have expected my SF commute to be easier than my Parisian one was.

However, Paris has a great subway infrastructure (and public transportation in general) that SF sorely lack.

Everything is centered around a car-first infrastructure which has failed to scale in order to accommodate the current traffic.

I don't want to own a car and even less to commute with one.

I have done it for a couple of years, that's x minutes every day where I can't do much and have to stay focused on the road.

Subway/walking commute on the contrary are often pleasant and let me listen to podcasts and read articles (pocket is great for this).

In the end, I bought a boosted board, it is a great commute shortener.

The biggest downside is that it is pretty hard to maneuver a longboard on the very poor SF streets. Some are in great shape, but most of them around SOMA are pretty bad when you use a skate.

It would be easier if my skate had bigger wheels, like scooters have.

It looks like a great alternative, I would love to see more of these on US streets.

PS.: I think it would be hard to share the sidewalk though. Unless it is very large, like on the embarcadero, there it is not an issue.

The problem with sharing the sidewalk is that the usual eskate/scooter speed is way too fast to share the sidewalk. Sooner or later somebody will exit a building just as you pass by and you are both going to get hurt.

We either need extra large sidewalks with a space reserved to small vehicles; or streets with protected bike lanes.

Streets without a bike lane are also pretty dangerous on this kind of vehicle. I am always on my guard : if I fall, I fall in the middle of the traffic.

Also, bike lanes are poorly engineered for scooter and especially skates. They have tiny wheels compared to bikes. So you have to avoid potholes, manholes, and all kind of obstacles. Even the paint of the bike lane is an obstacle; it is often very slippery.

Some better civil engineering is needed here.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#158

Post by [deleted] »

imgabe wrote: post #31
fstuff wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired of that. I strongly disagree with this. I've owned an electric scooter for over a year now and I learned real fast that it's super dangerous to ride on the sidewalk. The problem with pedestrians is that they are not looking out for scooters. People will wander into your path and depending on how fast you're going you may collide. Also you…

I bike commute. I stay on the road as much as possible, but there's parts where it's impractical. So, I get on the sidewalk, go slow, and yield to pedestrians. That said, Jesus Christ people. Take out your headphones, put your phone away, and freaking pay attention to your surroundings. People wander around like they're the baby from the Popeye cartoons expecting everything else to miraculously flow around them. Forg…

[deleted]

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#159

Post by kakwa_ »

fstuff wrote: post #12
ryanobjc wrote: post #5

I initially was bah humbugy about these scooters, but after reading an article that points out we have acres of space devoted to private automobiles, and that it really wouldn't be hard to accommodate these electric scooters, I changed my mind. They look fun, they seem more flexible than the hard-wired go-bike stations, and they don't seem super expensive. It's pretty obvious that our cities are broken, and SF needs…

>As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired of that. I strongly disagree with this. I've owned an electric scooter for over a year now and I learned real fast that it's super dangerous to ride on the sidewalk. The problem with pedestrians is that they are not looking out for scooters. People will wander into your path and depending on how fast you're going you may collide. Also you…

One solution is to have lines for bikes and scooters.

In fact, for example in Paris (where I live), there is a lot of dedicated lines for bikes, and there are also dedicated bus lanes that bikes can take. When I commute by bike, I think only 1/3 of the road is actually in the main traffic.

Also as a pedestrian, bikes and scooters are a bit of a nightmare. Personally I instinctively rely on hearing when crossing a street, and because bike and electric scooter move silently it's not difficult to miss them, specially as there are also smaller than cars, so also more difficult to see.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#160

Post by JoeAltmaier »

leohutson wrote: post #64
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have more sympathy for pedestrians. They go around 2-3mph. Auto traffic around 25-50. Bikes and scooters are way closer to cars than pedestrians. So, its a matter of risking the safety of cyclist, or pedestrians. No clear win there I can see.

This is a completely irrational way to look at it. The risk of a pedestrian fatality posed by a collision with a car travelling 30kmh is closer to the risk from a car going 5kmh than that of a car going 50kmh. Look at the chart here: http://www.victoriawalks.org.au/safe_speed/ The risk from speed is non-linear. Risk the pedestrians in speed zone greater than 30kmh, because risk of fatal injury is far lower.

Don't know many bikes in my community that go 5mph. They're going 20, commuting miles to work.

Anyway, the pedestrians don't risk either now. So saying "Folks should be comfortable adding a reasonable risk of death, since it could be far worse!" is not compelling.

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