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Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

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121–130 of 193 posts

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#121
post #12
post #5

I initially was bah humbugy about these scooters, but after reading an article that points out we have acres of space devoted to private automobiles, and that it really wouldn't be hard to accommodate these electric scooters, I changed my mind. They look fun, they seem more flexible than the hard-wired go-bike stations, and they don't seem super expensive. It's pretty obvious that our cities are broken, and SF needs…

>As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired of that. I strongly disagree with this. I've owned an electric scooter for over a year now and I learned real fast that it's super dangerous to ride on the sidewalk. The problem with pedestrians is that they are not looking out for scooters. People will wander into your path and depending on how fast you're going you may collide. Also you…

> I strongly disagree with this. I've owned an electric scooter for over a year now and I learned real fast that it's super dangerous to ride on the sidewalk.

What speed do you travel at? Max, average, and typical speeds?

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#122
post #59
post #5

I initially was bah humbugy about these scooters, but after reading an article that points out we have acres of space devoted to private automobiles, and that it really wouldn't be hard to accommodate these electric scooters, I changed my mind. They look fun, they seem more flexible than the hard-wired go-bike stations, and they don't seem super expensive. It's pretty obvious that our cities are broken, and SF needs…

So you're saying you don't like sharing the road with heavier, less maneuverable, and faster moving objects, so you bring your scooter/bike on the sidewalk? Makes sense.

You forgot to add "that can, and do trivially kill people."

Bicycles and scooters being driven on sidewalks tend to not do that.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#123

These Electric Scooters in San Francisco have become a total nuisance. I've seen quite a few riders ride them on the sidewalks and 1 person even ran into a dude on a wheelchair who was trying to get onto the sidewalk after crossing the road on his wheelchair. The last safe place for Pedestrians and disabled persons -- the Sidewalk -- is under attack. The startups that have created this nuisance also park these scoote…

Police just need to start issuing tickets. Seems like a solid and easy revenue stream. Both riding on the sidewalk and riding without a helmet is illegal. Haven't seen any rider wearing one. CA Law: "An operator of a motorized scooter must be at least 16 years old, possess a valid drivers license or instruction permit, and wear a helmet. A motorized scooter may be operated on a bicycle path, trail or bikeway, but not…

Do you wear a helmet when driving? Or walking?

Why don't we have similar helmet laws for drivers and pedestrians?

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#124

These Electric Scooters in San Francisco have become a total nuisance. I've seen quite a few riders ride them on the sidewalks and 1 person even ran into a dude on a wheelchair who was trying to get onto the sidewalk after crossing the road on his wheelchair. The last safe place for Pedestrians and disabled persons -- the Sidewalk -- is under attack. The startups that have created this nuisance also park these scoote…

The sidewalk in San Francisco is already not a safe place. Everyone is looking down at their phones. If they aren't, it seems like a large amount of SF residents don't know how to walk on sidewalks appropriately (stick to one side of the road when someone is coming the other way, don't walk 6 abreast, etc.). I have seen so many people bump into each other and get into accidents simply walking. I wouldn't mind scooter…

https://thebaffler.com/latest/whos-afraid-petextrian-fraade

"Petextrians" bumping into each other isn't anywhere near as dangerous as motorists with easy access to heavy vehicles driving near sidewalks.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're the one choosing to drive a dangerous vehicle, why should other people be responsible ?

If your society considers a particular transportation mode so antisocial that people who choose it are automatically guilty regardless of the specifics of the incident, no one should ever make that mode choice. It's tantamount to a ban. You aren't perfect, and other people sometimes behave far outside the bounds of what any reasonable person expects (and sometimes do so deliberately to commit insurance fraud). If the…

> At speed, injuring the pedestrians who get in your way is an inevitability

Well, that's the point. You are supposed to be riding or driving at a speed that you can safely stop if you need to. This is the same in every country, right?

> Japan is messaging that Japanese people ought to stay far, far away from bicycling unless they have particularly extreme appetite for risk.

Bicycling to work or school is very common here

> Japan takes the pedestrian victim-blaming even further than necessary in this case, and bills their families for the cleanup costs.

They sue for damages because they have to arrange buses for tens of thousands of people. It's not cheap

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#126
post #68

The maximum deceleration of a vehicle is g times the tangent of the angle from the center of mass to the front wheel contact point. On a sidewalk, a safe stopping distance is about 1 meter. Because of the small angle, safe speed for scooters and skateboards is about the same as walking. Also, the small non-pneumatic wheels are easily stopped by cracks and small objects. They are far less safe than bicycles, which are…

> On a sidewalk, a safe stopping distance is about 1 meter. Because of the small angle, safe speed for scooters and skateboards is about the same as walking.

The safe stopping distance depends on your line of sight around corners - if you're riding far enough from entrances and exits, at an appropriate pace, the stopping distance can be either greater or smaller provided you anticipate enough.

> Also, the small non-pneumatic wheels are easily stopped by cracks and small objects.

But much less so than normal kick scooters or skateboards. Skateboards are a worse in that regard, and scooters much better with the wheels being larger and in-line.

> They are far less safe than bicycles, which are excluded from sidewalks, and riding them on roads with vehicle traffic is suicidal. I guarantee that this will be born out by accident data soon.

It depends on whether you take them on a daredevil mountain descent at peak hour or not. If you want to look at the data, you might realise that while sidewalk riding in San Francisco is prohibited (but not well enforced, perhaps because police have better priorities), it is permitted in the states north, Oregon and Washington State. It's also permitted in many places around Australia - in fact, often times, where a shared path ends and a footpath begins is a blurred line. Where sidewalk/footpath riding is permitted, cyclists are largely as safe around pedestrians whether the pedestrian is on the footpath or the road.

> I’ve spent years of my life on the road by my own power, and I am certain that I would be dead many times over if I were on a scooter instead of a bicycle.

Many times over, only if you don't learn from the first instance. Not everyone proceeds forth with the same unchanged attitude after their first early mishap.

> When the streets of SF are wide open because the cars got kicked out, ride whatever you want. Until then, ride a bike. Ride a big long frame with steel-spoked wheels. E-bike if you must, and don’t mind me trying to keep up with you with an aging meat motor.

The best way to encourage rider uptake is to build the appropriate balanced infrastructure - that will mean taking away "free" on-stree car parking spaces along with other measures. America's experiment with "vehicular cycling" has long failed and people are simpy no longer riding, but instead spending more time on the sofas and chairs. That's the greatest health burden right now going forward.

The electric scooters are a symptom of a larger problem, not the cause.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#127
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah cars are totally unused in Amsterdam.

30 seconds of Googling suggests (and a comment upthread) suggest that a defense based on reasonable expectations and circumstances beyond one's control is available to drivers in The Netherlands. The stakes are also much lower when the thing you're assigning is an insurance company payout. Cyclists presumably aren't insured when they hit pedestrians. If there were no defense available, cycling would be a bad idea. Fo…

> Cyclists presumably aren't insured when they hit pedestrians.

It is compulsory in some places in Japan. ¥4,000 ($40) per year pays out up to 3 billion yen ($3,000,000) in case you hit someone.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#128
post #89

I'm all for having more scooters parked on sidewalks and less Uber/Lyft vehicles blocking bike Lanes and adding to downtown traffic. The scooters are much needed, obviously. But, as usual, the media and city are crying about it and all you read in the news is "scooter mayhem" like this is the scooter apocalypse. Find something else to write and worry about, Jesus.

Scooters going painfully slow in bike lanes will not be terribly different from cars stopping in them. Either way, you have to merge into traffic to pass.

I bet that in places such a Utrecht and Groningen, scooters are much less in vogue since the default option available to both young and old is the bicycle.

This is another case of Silicon Valley looking at using more tech to solve a societal and political problem. However, unlike Tesla/Uber/Waymo et al, it's a little more grounded.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#129
post #39

I've ridden a few of these. They're pretty fun and cheap. I actually like the model for trips in the 1mi range. In an ideal world full of well behaved people and good intentions I'd keep them around. But am I the only one that has a problem with the complete hubris shown by these companies. Raise $100M, buy thousands of $500 Chinese scooters, drop them on the city sidewalks and hope everyone just deals with it. Why c…

Their profit margins are huge, though. I bought an electric scooter for $300 (Segway ES1). It costs near nothing to charge. These scooters make back their money in a mere 40 hours of use. A 1 week car rental would have to cost $35,000 to have the same profit margin.

People who don't get around under their own steam (even if electrics are involved) don't see it the way you and I do.

While they don't blink at the costs of car registration, fuel and maintenance cost (not to mention initial outlay), a few hundred dollars on a bicycle or scooter is seen as quite a leap of faith because they're unsure about whether they can adapt to fit it into their lives.

Anglophone societies are very blinkered into thinking that car is king.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#130

My only problem with scooters is the assholes who ride on the sidewalk and then run into you. I could care less if they want to ride in the street without a helmet. Good luck with that.

There's a bit of research that suggests helmets can encourage risk compensation and have people traveling faster. For a glimpse into a possible dire future, Australia and New Zealand are one of the very few countries in the world with mandatory bicycle helmet laws - the results have been dire. (See also the helmet law debate - there's probably not enough room in this thread to go into all of that.)

But yes, arseholes are arseholes wherever they might be. It's not limited to people on smaller lower-powered wheels.

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