Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced • Hacker News Board

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#111

Post by klez » Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 9:04 AM UTC

Zanni wrote: post #75

imgabe wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bike commute. I stay on the road as much as possible, but there's parts where it's impractical. So, I get on the sidewalk, go slow, and yield to pedestrians. That said, Jesus Christ people. Take out your headphones, put your phone away, and freaking pay attention to your surroundings. People wander around like they're the baby from the Popeye cartoons expecting everything else to miraculously flow around them. Forg…

I walk commute often, and especially when I'm traveling. Sure, cars are dangerous, and bicycles are often irresponsible, but pedestrians are the worst. They'll walk four abreast, gather in large groups at chokepoints, block traffic to take photos, stop for no reason. And no one really cares because most of this bad behavior is limited to sidewalks, so it only affects other pedestrians. But it makes it damn difficult…

You should take a walk in Venice. All the problems you mentioned plus the peculiarity that there's only the "sidewalk".

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#112

Post by closeparen » Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 9:07 AM UTC

bkor wrote: post #107

closeparen wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? It's the furthest thing possible from safe to do something that makes you automatically liable for any incident.

There are a few exceptions to it. However, that's exactly how it works in The Netherlands. Biker needs to watch out for a pedestrian. Car for bikes and pedestrians, etc. If a car could've avoided the accident no matter if a cyclist was doing something wrong, car is at fault. This change prevented loads of accidents. Before if a cyclist did something wrong the general thought was "cyclist should've paid attention". Bu…

>"If a car could've avoided the accident"

That's a pretty crucial distinction from strict liability, and is much closer to what we have in the US (at least on paper, you have a duty to avert a collision if you can, regardless of right of way).

Unless you mean the most trivial sense of "you could have avoided the accident by not driving."

"Needs to watch out for" is quite different from "is always at fault if it collides with."

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#113

Post by closeparen » Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 9:14 AM UTC

arnoooooo wrote: post #103

closeparen wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Huh? It's the furthest thing possible from safe to do something that makes you automatically liable for any incident.

You're the one choosing to drive a dangerous vehicle, why should other people be responsible ?

If your society considers a particular transportation mode so antisocial that people who choose it are automatically guilty regardless of the specifics of the incident, no one should ever make that mode choice. It's tantamount to a ban. You aren't perfect, and other people sometimes behave far outside the bounds of what any reasonable person expects (and sometimes do so deliberately to commit insurance fraud). If there's no standard like "reasonable caution" or "due care" to save you, then it doesn't matter how cautious you are, making that mode choice is playing with fire.

Parent said that cyclists who hit pedestrians are automatically liable, then turned around and called bicycling "safe." That's a bizarre interpretation - with that law, Japan is messaging that Japanese people ought to stay far, far away from bicycling unless they have particularly extreme appetite for risk.

To answer your question, modern cities need some method of transportation faster than walking. At speed, injuring the pedestrians who get in your way is an inevitability. Either you have a tax on the unlucky (and unable to afford real estate in the pedestrian core), or you give at least one such method immunity. In Japan, that method is trains. Japan takes the pedestrian victim-blaming even further than necessary in this case, and bills their families for the cleanup costs.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#114

Post by watwut » Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 9:42 AM UTC

closeparen wrote: post #113

arnoooooo wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're the one choosing to drive a dangerous vehicle, why should other people be responsible ?

If your society considers a particular transportation mode so antisocial that people who choose it are automatically guilty regardless of the specifics of the incident, no one should ever make that mode choice. It's tantamount to a ban. You aren't perfect, and other people sometimes behave far outside the bounds of what any reasonable person expects (and sometimes do so deliberately to commit insurance fraud). If the…

Yeah cars are totally unused in Amsterdam.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#115

Post by akvadrako » Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 9:46 AM UTC

tlrobinson wrote: post #17

ryanobjc wrote: post #5

I initially was bah humbugy about these scooters, but after reading an article that points out we have acres of space devoted to private automobiles, and that it really wouldn't be hard to accommodate these electric scooters, I changed my mind. They look fun, they seem more flexible than the hard-wired go-bike stations, and they don't seem super expensive. It's pretty obvious that our cities are broken, and SF needs…

> As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired of that. Being in traffic is exceedingly dangerous, and apparently as long as someone else's life on the line you're good with it. As someone who uses electric skateboards and scooters fairly regularly, I disagree. Bicycle lanes are the most appropriate place for them. Supposedly Steve Jobs predicted the Segway would cause cities to be "r…

Not the same type of scooter, but here in Amsterdam they put them on the bike path a few decades ago. And it's a major nuisance for cyclists. They are not compatible modes of transport and it's dangerous.

So the city passed a new law last year to start transitioning them back to the road.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#116

Post by GoToRO » Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 9:48 AM UTC

bigtunacan wrote: post #90

cup-of-tea wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article doesn't even talk about deaths, only injuries. Compared to the number of pedestrians killed by motor vehicles the figures seem insignificant. More people die each year from choking.

First paragraph from the article... "The recent death of Jill Tarlov, a pedestrian killed by a bicyclist in New York’s Central Park —the second such incident in two months—engendered a flurry of commentary and analysis of the dangers of cyclists determined to train for speed in one of the city’s most crowded recreational havens." It goes on to discuss that most deaths are due to head injuries.

"train for speed" so it's not transport...

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#117

Post by koliber » Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 9:54 AM UTC

fstuff wrote: post #12

ryanobjc wrote: post #5

I initially was bah humbugy about these scooters, but after reading an article that points out we have acres of space devoted to private automobiles, and that it really wouldn't be hard to accommodate these electric scooters, I changed my mind. They look fun, they seem more flexible than the hard-wired go-bike stations, and they don't seem super expensive. It's pretty obvious that our cities are broken, and SF needs…

>As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired of that. I strongly disagree with this. I've owned an electric scooter for over a year now and I learned real fast that it's super dangerous to ride on the sidewalk. The problem with pedestrians is that they are not looking out for scooters. People will wander into your path and depending on how fast you're going you may collide. Also you…

Everything you said about scooter applies, and has always applied, to bicycles. This is not a new problem. It's now more prevalent because more people ride scooters. It would also have been a problem if more people rode bikes.

The solution is consideration and attentiveness from pedestrians, people riding scooters, and people riding bikes.

If I ride my bike on the street, I pay attention to the rules of the road as well as possible dangers. These include cars ignoring the right of way, pedestrians walking onto the street suddenly between parked cars, and people opening car doors.

If I ride my bike on the sidewalk, I ride slower, and am attentive to people walking unpredictably, coming out of doorways, or coming around corners full speed.

I would like for pedestrians to behave more responsibly, both on the sidewalk and on the street. I am doing my part. No one is "king of the road/sidewalk". You can't put all the blame on any on party. Everyone needs to adjust their behavior for a safe society.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#118

Post by closeparen » Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 9:54 AM UTC

watwut wrote: post #114

closeparen wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If your society considers a particular transportation mode so antisocial that people who choose it are automatically guilty regardless of the specifics of the incident, no one should ever make that mode choice. It's tantamount to a ban. You aren't perfect, and other people sometimes behave far outside the bounds of what any reasonable person expects (and sometimes do so deliberately to commit insurance fraud). If the…

Yeah cars are totally unused in Amsterdam.

30 seconds of Googling suggests (and a comment upthread) suggest that a defense based on reasonable expectations and circumstances beyond one's control is available to drivers in The Netherlands. The stakes are also much lower when the thing you're assigning is an insurance company payout. Cyclists presumably aren't insured when they hit pedestrians. If there were no defense available, cycling would be a bad idea.

Found this: https://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk/wiki/dutch-cycle-because-...

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#119

Post by koliber » Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 9:59 AM UTC

bkor wrote: post #108

ryanobjc wrote: post #5

I initially was bah humbugy about these scooters, but after reading an article that points out we have acres of space devoted to private automobiles, and that it really wouldn't be hard to accommodate these electric scooters, I changed my mind. They look fun, they seem more flexible than the hard-wired go-bike stations, and they don't seem super expensive. It's pretty obvious that our cities are broken, and SF needs…

> As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", It should be pretty clear that both car lanes and pedestrian paths are both unsafe for scooters. Add a bike path, just like e.g. The Netherlands, Denmark, etc. The bike path is generally designed for up to 25-30km/h. Certain scooters and electric bikes may go above that. In Netherlands scooters and electric bikes are divided into 2, ones which can re…

Just because scooters can go that fast, it does not mean that they should be allowed to do so. I think speed limits make sense in many situations.

If you ride your scooter capable for going 50km/hr that fast on a road in a 30km/hr zone, you are speeding. Perhaps the same should be true if you are riding your scooter too fast in a bike lane. It should definitely be true if you are riding your bike or scooter on a sidewalk too fast or recklessly.

How fast is too fast remains to be seen.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#120

Post by dredmorbius » Thu, Apr 26, 2018, 10:05 AM UTC

On auto safety, the perception is that safety improvements came late, and improved dramatically at some particular point in time, though that is variously given: 1950s and safety belts (as they were called), 1960s and crash tests, 1970s and speed laaws, 1980s and airbags / ABS, etc.

The truth is that on a miles-travelled basis, early gains were greatest, followed by a remarkably steady rate of halved risk roughly every 20 years, starting around 1925 and continuing to present.

The chart below begins in 1921. I recall one I'd found previously dating to ~1910 showing an even more pronounced early decline, halving in ten years, before the 20-year trend was established.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/TIp8lXB5h2I/AAAAAAAAOW...

A lesson on seeveral grouds: perception/impressions vs. reality, the power of gradual improvement, diminishing returns, underappreciated early gains, and the power of standardisation, regulation, and liability.

Which may also relate to the scooter debate.