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Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

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Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#51

Post by PhasmaFelis »

imgabe wrote: post #31
fstuff wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired of that. I strongly disagree with this. I've owned an electric scooter for over a year now and I learned real fast that it's super dangerous to ride on the sidewalk. The problem with pedestrians is that they are not looking out for scooters. People will wander into your path and depending on how fast you're going you may collide. Also you…

I bike commute. I stay on the road as much as possible, but there's parts where it's impractical. So, I get on the sidewalk, go slow, and yield to pedestrians. That said, Jesus Christ people. Take out your headphones, put your phone away, and freaking pay attention to your surroundings. People wander around like they're the baby from the Popeye cartoons expecting everything else to miraculously flow around them. Forg…

> I bike commute. I stay on the road as much as possible, but there's parts where it's impractical. So, I get on the sidewalk, go slow, and yield to pedestrians.

Yeah. I bike on the sidewalk sometimes, but when I do I consider it 100% my responsibility to avoid pedestrians. They're not expecting me and they have no reason to look out for me; it's my job to go slow, watch entrances, and not scare people by blowing past 6 inches away from them.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#52

Post by PhasmaFelis »

tlrobinson wrote: post #17
ryanobjc wrote: post #5

I initially was bah humbugy about these scooters, but after reading an article that points out we have acres of space devoted to private automobiles, and that it really wouldn't be hard to accommodate these electric scooters, I changed my mind. They look fun, they seem more flexible than the hard-wired go-bike stations, and they don't seem super expensive. It's pretty obvious that our cities are broken, and SF needs…

> As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired of that. Being in traffic is exceedingly dangerous, and apparently as long as someone else's life on the line you're good with it. As someone who uses electric skateboards and scooters fairly regularly, I disagree. Bicycle lanes are the most appropriate place for them. Supposedly Steve Jobs predicted the Segway would cause cities to be "r…

It's getting better, but a lot of places still don't have bike lanes. I'll ride on the sidewalk if I don't feel safe in the road, but I'm extra careful when I do.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#53

Post by paulmd »

justboxing wrote: post #7
ryanobjc wrote: post #5

I initially was bah humbugy about these scooters, but after reading an article that points out we have acres of space devoted to private automobiles, and that it really wouldn't be hard to accommodate these electric scooters, I changed my mind. They look fun, they seem more flexible than the hard-wired go-bike stations, and they don't seem super expensive. It's pretty obvious that our cities are broken, and SF needs…

> As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired of that Nothing self-righteous about that. Sidewalks are -- as the name itself suggests - meant for WALKING on the SIDE of the road, not for riding scooters and other vehicles which pose a danger to other people walking. Only exception being people on wheelchairs, but they aren't driving at break-neck speeds like an electric scooter rider…

Streets were originally for pedestrians, buster. The idea that they weren't was actually manufactured by the auto industry.

Sidewalks weren't invented to get people off streets, either.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/when-pedestrians-r...

Now: should our transportation infrastructure support cars? Yes. Society moves on. Should it also support bicycles and low-speed electric vehicles? Also yes.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#54

Post by vaughanb »

walshemj wrote: post #18
Tiktaalik wrote: post #2

> Today’s startups are promoting their products by following the same playbook as cars: get them on the street, and figure out how to regulate them afterward. > But cities are moving quicker this time. Austin and San Francisco have seized dozens of them. San Francisco has sent a cease and desist letter (paywall) to one company decrying the scooters as a “public nuisance” and “endangering public health and safety.” Go…

You know that horse's and horse riding are highly risky sports and also came with health risk's - the amount of horse poop in London as it grew was a major health issue. A parked car doesn't suddenly get spooked and lash out with its hooves does it.

Horse manure was considered a serious risk in NYC.

The banana skin (and the inevitable slip that followed) was a euphemism for slipping on horse manure in the street.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#55

Post by paulmd »

lurquer wrote: post #26
FooHentai wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we're gonna play that silly game, what about roads, from the old English rād meaning 'journey on horseback'.

What's your point? When roads were reserved for horses, would you ride your donkey on the sidewalk?

Roads were never reserved for horses.

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/innovation/when-pedestrians-r...

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#56

Post by imgabe »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #51
imgabe wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I bike commute. I stay on the road as much as possible, but there's parts where it's impractical. So, I get on the sidewalk, go slow, and yield to pedestrians. That said, Jesus Christ people. Take out your headphones, put your phone away, and freaking pay attention to your surroundings. People wander around like they're the baby from the Popeye cartoons expecting everything else to miraculously flow around them. Forg…

> I bike commute. I stay on the road as much as possible, but there's parts where it's impractical. So, I get on the sidewalk, go slow, and yield to pedestrians. Yeah. I bike on the sidewalk sometimes, but when I do I consider it 100% my responsibility to avoid pedestrians. They're not expecting me and they have no reason to look out for me; it's my job to go slow, watch entrances, and not scare people by blowing pas…

I tried really hard to make it clear that I am looking out for them. Apparently that was insufficient. It is made unnecessarily difficult to look out for someone who is weaving around erratically and completely oblivious to everything around them.

I bike on the road. I expect cars to look out for me. Nonetheless, I take measures to make it easy for them to do that. I wear reflective gear and have lights at night. I bike in an easily visible space. I signal where I'm going and move in a consistent, predictable manner.

There's absolutely no reason that someone on a sidewalk shouldn't expect that another person, whether walking or on a bike, might also need to use the sidewalk and to leave space for them to do so, or at a bare minimum, maintain a modicum of awareness so that you can see or hear someone else approaching.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#57

Post by edaemon »

ryanobjc wrote: post #5

I initially was bah humbugy about these scooters, but after reading an article that points out we have acres of space devoted to private automobiles, and that it really wouldn't be hard to accommodate these electric scooters, I changed my mind. They look fun, they seem more flexible than the hard-wired go-bike stations, and they don't seem super expensive. It's pretty obvious that our cities are broken, and SF needs…

The problem with American cities is that we only have two spaces: the road and the sidewalk. Bike lanes are sometimes added to roads, but they're still just lanes on the road. The roads have all been built and designed for cars. Sidewalks have been built for pedestrians. Bikes, scooters, skateboards, etc. just don't fit well into either space.

There's a great YouTube channel, BicycleDutch [1], that goes into some detail about the Dutch approach to thoroughfares. They almost always build three spaces: a road for cars, a path for bicycles, and a sidewalk for pedestrians. This results in a huge number of people using bicycles to get around; in Amsterdam 30% of people always commute with a bicycle and over 40% usually do.

Of course, it generally wouldn't be practical for an American city to just convert all its roads to also include a separated bike path. Instead they could look for areas where a bike path could be built without costing too much, drawing political ire, or significantly interfering with current use. Railroad tracks are good opportunities. As an example, Minneapolis converted an unused railroad corridor to a separated bike path, called the Midtown Greenway [2]. As of 2016 34,000+ people used it daily [3]. Portland, OR, has converted two former railways into bike paths, the Springwater Corridor trail [4] and the new Trolley Trail [5]. We have plenty of other separated paths here as well.

Where there just isn't enough horizontal space, a more radical approach would be to build an elevated bike path over a few major thoroughfares (i.e. main downtown streets) or freeways that connect commuters to other separated or multi-use paths. Xiamen, China, built an elevated cycle path -- really more of a bicycle highway -- last year [6]. Dallas [7], Phoenix [8], and Detroit [9] have all built parks over freeways that contain some mixed-use paths, though not always with transportation in mind.

Ultimately bicycles/scooters/etc. don't really fit well into the current American infrastructure, but it seems like a solvable problem.

1: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC67YlPrRvsO117gFDM7UePg

2: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midtown_Greenway

3: http://www.minneapolismn.gov/www/groups/public/@publicworks/...

4: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Springwater_Corridor

5: https://ncprd.com/parks/trolley-trail

6: https://www.mnn.com/green-tech/transportation/blogs/china-cy...

7: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klyde_Warren_Park

8: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_T._Hance_Park

9: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_696

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#58

Post by s17n »

PhasmaFelis wrote: post #52
tlrobinson wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> As for the self righteousness of "only peds belong on sidewalks", I get tired of that. Being in traffic is exceedingly dangerous, and apparently as long as someone else's life on the line you're good with it. As someone who uses electric skateboards and scooters fairly regularly, I disagree. Bicycle lanes are the most appropriate place for them. Supposedly Steve Jobs predicted the Segway would cause cities to be "r…

It's getting better, but a lot of places still don't have bike lanes. I'll ride on the sidewalk if I don't feel safe in the road, but I'm extra careful when I do.

So basically, you make peds feel unsafe so that you can feel safe.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#59

Post by s17n »

ryanobjc wrote: post #5

I initially was bah humbugy about these scooters, but after reading an article that points out we have acres of space devoted to private automobiles, and that it really wouldn't be hard to accommodate these electric scooters, I changed my mind. They look fun, they seem more flexible than the hard-wired go-bike stations, and they don't seem super expensive. It's pretty obvious that our cities are broken, and SF needs…

So you're saying you don't like sharing the road with heavier, less maneuverable, and faster moving objects, so you bring your scooter/bike on the sidewalk?

Makes sense.

Re: Electric scooter “mayhem” sounds like when cars were introduced

#60

Post by leohutson »

yorwba wrote: post #27
leohutson wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well reflexively referring to the DEFINITION of a WORD is not an argument. When there are no dedicated cycleways, either pedestrians share with at least some cyclists or scooterists or you have children cycling on the road.

When there are pedestrians, cyclists and cars sharing a space with only two different speed zones, cyclists driving on the sidewalk will have to limit themselves to walking speed, or cars driving on the same road as bicycles need to slow down to cyclist speed. The same "children cycling on the road" argument (which is only dangerous if the cars on the road are going faster than the children) can be applied to childre…

1) An auto going 30kmh is a great deal more dangerous to a pedestrian or cyclist than a cycle doing the same.

2) Cars pose a risk to cyclists, even if cars are going the same speed, which is a fictional scenario, as many motorists don't go the same speed as cyclists and instead overtake them dangerously ASAP.

3) The risk posed by cycles to pedestrians is far less than the danger posed by autos to cycles.

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