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Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

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Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a difference between being unable to read ancient texts and being unable to read anything published before 2018. Most materials will never get the lavish treatment given to universally-recognized classics like Beowulf and the Romance of the Three Kingdoms.

All literature and formal documents were written in Classical Chinese until the May Fourth movement in 1919. All ROC documents were written in Classical Chinese until the '70s. Turkish went Latin in the '30s. Hanja has been effectively dead for only a few decades. That doesn't mean that any of those cultures lost context for the time periods before their switch to modern writing systems. Before things were ancient, t…

In these examples the benefits to switching were much more obvious -- and the change I'm talking about did take place. Most Koreans, even with university-level educations, are simply unable to read texts making heavy use of hanja with no pronunciation guide.

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#212
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To a point of pedantry, it's диноЗавр. Also, холодильник would be transliterated something like kholodeelnik. But you always have to be aware of "false friends". Russian магазин (magazin) does not mean what one might think it does.

Knowing French, though, and thinking that "magazin" will probably sound more like "magasin" than "magasine", the meaning wasn't entirely unexpected.

Yes. Russian did borrow quite a few words from French.

Just goes to show that even between English and French, same alphabet or not, just because a word looks familiar it does not mean that one can guess the meaning correctly.

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#213
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People have easier time learning English, and it eases the communication a lot Is this really so? Are you sure having a different alphabet would make it harder for people to learn a western language? I am Russian, and I can safely say that pretty much every literate adult in Russia who has at least a basic school education can read Latin letters just fine, because there is no way around it; the alphabet is taught a…

The Cyrillic alphabet is a major barrier to learning Russian for Americans. I can only imagine it makes Kazakh even more daunting. I don't think Cyrillic letters pervade American culture in quite the same way that Latin letters pervade Russian culture, so it's not quite the same.

Really..? People do say that? That's a gross oversimplification of the problem of learning a language.

Learning Cyrillic is nothing compared to learning pronouncing, listening, grammar and vocabulary.

There are hundreds of words and grammar and conjugation rules to learn but 33 (or less, due to sharing) letters (and similar style ones, not Arabic ones or Chinese characters or Hangul ones) are a major obstacle?

Differences and amount of letters between Cyrillic and Latin is also nothing compared to how out there Chinese, Arabic, Thai, etc. systems are. It's so simple and similar and there's so little of it that it's as much of not an obstacle as it can be without being the same script.

Learning a language is always hard and learning most languages you'd have to learn a new sound for every Latin letter (and for many of its di and trigraphs used in the new language) as well anyway because it might be pronounced differently and you'd better not "cheat" by going letter -> English sound -> new language sound in your head because that's an obstacle and artificially slowing yourself down or possibly making a mistake.

Even though a lot of vocabulary, grammar and the script are shared between English, French, Dutch, Spanish, etc. it's not such a foregone conclusion that people can just do it effortlessly (with less effort than Chinese but it's still quite an effort).

Similarly I read accounts of Westerners taking Japanese Language Proficiency Test and mentioning a lot of Koreans and Chinese being there due to probably having less obstacles with Japanese (Korean supposedly has similar grammar and Chinese of course has similar writing system) but of course CJK languages are not mutually intelligible and a Korean, Japanese or Chinese person can't just up and go pass a language test in one of the other two easily.

Polish uses Latin and some diacritics but it's not any easier for it (it might actually be harder due to the language itself).

Ashens (a YouTuber who eats weird stuff) once pronounced wafelek jagodowy as it were English and it was so butchered he might as well have recited a Cthulu summoning instead (you can compare the two on Google Translate). I'm not jabbing at people who don't know Polish but I'm trying to illustrate that it just doesn't work that way - a Polish j or w is not an English j or w.

Cyrillic also doesn't pervade Poland at all and I don't know Russian but I had it at school so I know Cyrillic and having native Polish I can sort of get some Russian but an American who knew just Cyrillic would just get nothing. I also get nothing out of Kazakh in either script, Turkish, etc. but looking at any Slavic language or French I can get a lot of words due to similarities to what I do know.

On the way to fluency (whatever definition of it you might consider) you'll run into sounding natural in both sound and vocabulary way more often than anything else. E.g. former ambassador to Poland was considered by everyone to have great Polish (for an American that is..) and often spoke Polish when invited on TV and such and understood spoken and written Polish seemingly perfectly but you could tell as soon as he opened his mouth he's absolutely not a native speaker due to his pronunciation (and it's not just an accent, people from Podlasie have an accent when they come to Pomorze and vice versa, with him you could just tell he has an un-Polish vocal system producing Polish sounds) and he received ambassador language training USA does and has been living in Poland for years.

And I'm saying all that as someone with some interest in linguistic, writing systems, etc. for a while now and knowing 3-to-5-ish writing systems (Polish/English/Latin, Russian/Cyrillic, Japanese katakana and hiragana and few dozen kanji I can write and few hundred I can read - it's technically one "writing" system but it's more like a 3-in-1 because they represent same sounds but in different contexts and with different meaning or lack of it - it's a complex deal) and 2 languages really well (English, Polish) and 2 other badly (failed Russian, absolute beginner Japanese). I know this doesn't make me an expert but at least I've been around the languages a bit more than an average person.

I actually wish my biggest obstacle with Japanese was just learning all of katakana and hiragana (which there are almost 50 of each, plus diacritics and digraphs with them, and they are much different from Cyrillic and Latin) because I've done that long ago with very little overall effort using just Memrise and Obenkyo on my phone whenever I could spare a moment over a few weeks.

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#214

Isn't it better/easier to type at a keyboard using a latin alphabet rather than Cyrilic? There was once a guy trying to type Russian on my computer and he had to go to a website to type it. While when using a latin alphabet you can easily type Romanian with a US or French keyboard or whatever latin based keyboard. This benefit is huge.

If you know how to type Russian, using Latin keyboard is no problem.

I'm not really good at touch-typing, but I have no issue typing in Russian using a standard US keyboard without Cyrillic stickers (although I do put them on my home machines to make it easier).

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#215
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> People have easier time learning English, and it eases the communication a lot Is this really so? Are you sure having a different alphabet would make it harder for people to learn a western language? I am Russian, and I can safely say that pretty much every literate adult in Russia who has at least a basic school education can read Latin letters just fine, because there is no way around it; the alphabet is taught a…

The Cyrillic alphabet is a major barrier to learning Russian for Americans. I can only imagine it makes Kazakh even more daunting. I don't think Cyrillic letters pervade American culture in quite the same way that Latin letters pervade Russian culture, so it's not quite the same.

eh, i took russian in high school eons ago, and picked up cyrillic in a couple of weeks, even could write in cyrillic cursive by the end of the course. it's not that big of a deal (the hardest part was the variations of the "zsh" and "sh" letters).

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#216

I'm ethnical Russian living in Kazakhstan and I think that it's not a very wise decision. As correctly written in the article, overwhelming majority of Kazakhstani citizens speak and write Russian well. I just don't see any point with this change, but costs are tremendous, you have to rewrite every single book including learning books, you have to replace every street plate. When overwhelming majority of people speak…

I've read one or two comments here about "we should conform to the standard". I'm a Brit, speak English and disagree.

It is handy to have a "Lingua Franca" (Frankish language or "French") and at the moment that is generally considered to be English (unless you happen to live in the rather large bits of the world where it isn't).

@vbezhenar is bloody close to fluent in my language. "I'm an ethnic Russian" is better than "I'm ethnical ..." and a few other minor points. Don't forget "the" and "a/an" - in English we don't have the definitive and indefinitive articles built in to our nouns.

I can be barely understood in a few other languages (DE, FR, ES, IT). I live in a small country where Scottish, Irish and Welsh are also considered native languages by some of the locals and with luck Cornish will soon join them.

I believe that if we all spoke the same language then that language would be very boring.

Viva la difference

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#217
post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but the local languages where repressed and even forbidden for a long time by the republic ("It’s forbidden to spit and spoke X language" policy at schools) in ordrer to increase or create the national unity. I’m very sad that from the two languages known by my grand parents generation (alsatian and a dialect of dutch) I only know a few words because these languages were destroyed by the state.

No doubt all empires deploy similar tactics, but in respect to the topic at hand I doubt Canada believes there is a credible threat of France using french as an excuse to annex parts of Canada. While Kazakhstan have seen Russia execute this strategy multiple times in very recent years.

They don't fear annexation but they fear independance.

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> When overwhelming majority of people speak Russian and Russia is the most important trade partner, I think that it's only logical to have Russian as one of the official languages in the country It makes perfect sense if you want to move away from Russia to dramatically broaden your national potential over time. Russia has a very modest economy versus its population size. Canada and South Korea have overtaken it, an…

> Russia is ranked around #60 in the world on GDP per capita. Nonetheless, GPD rank is ~12 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nomi... Per-capita rating of countries like India, China is lower (~100). But these are apparently strong economies.

Right but India and China have solid gdp growth for decades, and have been educating hundreds of millions and pulling them out of poverty while Russia: https://tradingeconomics.com/russia/gdp-growth

Three decades ago Russia had a literacy rate of like 99%++, while China was at like 60-70%. There was a lot of "free" growth to be had in China (obviously not free) by lifting the population. China's still got room to grow there.

Like a lot of things in economics, trajectory is important (maybe too important, idk).

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#219
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, the measuring stick is not English. Is it Latin? Which version? See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_alphabet Or is it all modern non-Cyrillic letters used in Europe that don't have diacritics? In any case, diacritics are a positive. They're used to make a language as phonetic as possible, which is a net positive. As anyone can attest, learning to pronounce English words (or French, for that matter) is a lot…

Learing to pronounce French words is rather easy. English is a huge mess.

Really?

French (there are quite a few of them - think CA for example) has just as many idiosyncrasies as English when you really get in to it.

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#220
post #206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that anyone was prosecuted strictly because of speaking/teaching language. But there were Kazakh intelligence (who probably promoted language among other national agendas) prosecuted for opposing soviet regime. Again, I don't think that language itself has anything with it. That said, yes, USSR forced other nations to adapt Russian language and it's understandable that those nations didn't like it. But…

> But it was almost a century ago The USSR colapsed less than 30 years ago.

I think their point is that the repression that you're discussing is largely pre-Krushchev; that's not quite a century ago, but it's a world away from what life in the USSR was like by the 1980s.
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