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Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?

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Re: Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?

#111

Post by najirama »

This whole thread reeks of nonsensical, "things-we-cannot-say", Politically Correct, bullshit.

Let us call a spade a spade shall we? Asians have a considerable and measurable white bias when it comes to aesthetics.

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/east/05/13/asia.wh...

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/jul/26/local/me-whitening26

Couple the skin-whitening phenomenon with the double-eyelid surgery explosion with the open-air admission of the Asians' who elect to do these procedures that the so-called "Hellenic" features are more desirable than their own - and you have more than circumstantial evidence for the proposition "The Japanese draw themselves as white."

...And that isn't even mentioning the fact that the characters they draw, by any reasonable appraisal look about as white as Christmas in Nebraska.

If the truth offends your sensibilities, then it is your sensibilities that need adjusting.

Re: Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?

#112

Post by Charuru »

BobbyH wrote: post #4

The post makes a good point, but it does overlook the fact that the "Godfather of Anime", Osamu Tezuka ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osamu_Tezuka ) was heavily influenced by Walt Disney and American animation. For instance, the Wikipedia article notes: "The distinctive "large eyes" style of Japanese animation was invented by Tezuka, drawing inspirations on cartoons of the time such as Betty Boop and Walt Disney's Ba…

I don't see the connection (and I don't think there is one) between large eyes and white people.

If you look at anime, people of all colors have pretty much similarly sized eyes, white characters or Japanese characters. If the Japanese really perceive white people to have large eyes, then you would expect to see white people in anime to have larger eyes than Asian characters. That's not the case.

Large eyes is a style in anime in general (as Sukotto explained) and has nothing to do with race.

Re: Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?

#113

Post by klipt »

derefr wrote: post #84

I'm going to give what is probably a very contrarian view here: scientific studies show that Caucasian features allow for a higher standard deviation than Asian features. (That is to say, both Asian and Caucasian test groups think two randomly-sampled Asians look more similar than two randomly-sampled Caucasians.) When you have 10 or 20 characters, and want them to be recognizable at a glance (for brand ownership), e…

If you want greater variance, why stick to a single subgroup when humanity as a whole will always be more variable?

Re: Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?

#114

Post by TGJ »

edanm wrote: post #80
Sukotto wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those characters have big eyes and foreheads for two reasons. Firstly, to make them cuter... like babies. All baby humans have proportionally big heads/eyes to the rest of their bodies and we're hardwired to think of those characteristics as simpler, cuter, and deserving of our attention. Secondly, to give the animator a face that is both simpler and larger which makes it much easier to draw expressions These two thi…

I once took a Psychology course which had another explanation for the large eyes. Apparently, when humans are sexually aroused, their pupils get larger. This makes people with larger pupils more sexually appealing, leading to all kinds of tricks to making your pupils larger (for example, candlelit dinners; also, in some older civilizations, women used to use eyedrops to make their pupils larger). All of this leads to…

And all of a sudden I want to give my wife a candle-light dinner.

Re: Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?

#115

Post by mbubb »

Jun8 wrote: post #66
jimbokun wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"why are the characters in traditional Japanese paintings look very Japanese (slanted eyes, hairdo, etc.)." So modern anime characters should look more like traditional Japanese paintings? "How can you explain that a lot of Japanese women go through cosmetic surgery to get rid of the slant in their eyes to make them look more Western?" Citation? How many is "many"? "Why is baseball so popular in Japan?" Because they'…

Here's ( http://www.bellasugar.com/Jessica-Simpson-Eyelid-Surgery-Pri... ) a recent link on how popular double eyelid surgery is in Korea and Japan. I don't have the hard figures but I would guess that this procedure would be much more common in Korea and Japan then in China since these populations are more affluent and were heavily affected by US presence. As for baseball, most everyone agrees this is a quintessenti…

This is not completely accurate. Korean culture had basically no Western contact before the 1870s. There are Korean and Chinese accounts (ie Chinese envoy's accounts of Korean life) dating back to the 1100s describing Korean concepts of beauty.

Large eyes were considered beautiful and makeup manuals for women showed them how to accentuate their eyebrows and make eyes larger and rounder.

I am not crazy about the original article but have th agree - here - with the point he made. Do not assume that because they are making their eyes larger and rounder it is because they want to look Western. It is because larger rounder eyes have been considered attractive for a long time in the culture.

As did paler skin I believe - but again not because of a Western Caucasian model. The foreign influence for these ideas would have been China, probably Confucian ideas.

The Japanese were not as isolated from the West as the Koreans were but I would not be surprised if there were older indigenous models for beauty as well.

http://www.asianartnewspaper.com/article/the-cosmetic-cultur...

Re: Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?

#116

Post by Qu4Z »

lotusleaf1987 wrote: post #95
bitwize wrote: post #30

This phenomenon is acknowledged enough by the Japanese to where it has a name: it's called "mukokuseki" which is Japanese for "no nationality". Basically it amounts to this: characters are drawn in an ethnically neutral way so that they have universal appeal, and it makes it easier to export these media works into foreign markets. Maybe the foreign markets thing was not a concern in Tezuka's early days, but it certai…

Just a thought, but how is drawing them white ethnically neutral? It seems like something more beige/brown would be, seeing as how most of the world as tan-skinned.

I think it's largely because the page is white. How do you color someone beige/brown in a black-and-white medium? Specifically black and white, not grayscale.

A question to you: What is it that makes them drawn specifically white, other than eyes? Is it only the fact that they're on a white background, or is there more there that I am missing.

Re: Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?

#118

Post by mbubb »

jimbokun wrote: post #75
Jun8 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's ( http://www.bellasugar.com/Jessica-Simpson-Eyelid-Surgery-Pri... ) a recent link on how popular double eyelid surgery is in Korea and Japan. I don't have the hard figures but I would guess that this procedure would be much more common in Korea and Japan then in China since these populations are more affluent and were heavily affected by US presence. As for baseball, most everyone agrees this is a quintessenti…

Baseball is more popular throughout the Caribbean and Latin America than it is in the U.S., and many of the best major leaguers come from there. During the World Baseball Classic, most of the biggest names were playing for countries other than the U.S. And Japan won the tournament, both of the times it has been played so far. The best U.S. finish is fourth. I see the U.S. relationship with baseball becoming similar t…

Basically true that baseball is US, Caribbean, Korean and Japan. But some interesting players from Mexico, Canada, Australia and Europe belie some spread. Frankly I would not think it could spread...

I like the World Baseball Classic and I would attribute in part the lack of American success because the MLB players are in the beginning of their playing year when the tournament takes place. In his glory years Lance Armstrong did not win too many spring races because he was looking to peak in July.

I think the American players in the WBC are just getting into "spring training" mode.

The Asian teams come to play. The last two WBCs there have been really good games Korean vs Japan. MLB players like Ichiro and Hee Seop Choi crashing into walls and sliding head first. In March.

The WBC is great fun and I recommend it. I cannot sit through an MLB game any more...

Re: Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?

#119

Post by mbubb »

Jun8 wrote: post #101
jimbokun wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Baseball is more popular throughout the Caribbean and Latin America than it is in the U.S., and many of the best major leaguers come from there. During the World Baseball Classic, most of the biggest names were playing for countries other than the U.S. And Japan won the tournament, both of the times it has been played so far. The best U.S. finish is fourth. I see the U.S. relationship with baseball becoming similar t…

Hmm, it's hard to agree with this. I think you're equating success in world tournaments with professional level of play, which may not be the case. As a case in point, consider the recent FIBA World Campionship: Turkey played the final with US and gave it a run for its money (at least at the start of the game). Serbia was awesome, too. The US Team didn't even make it to the final in the previous three times ( http://…

US has the best players at every position in basketball, hands down. Not quite the same in baseball but you could produce a dominant American team. But might not have the best team always. I think there has been a decline in US baseball and basketball as team sports.

I am not sure I could empirically prove it though. I find it hard to sit through an actual game in any major US sport, though I find myself still following the NYC teams I grew up with (Mets, Giants, Knicks).

Re: Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?

#120

Post by jimbokun »

Jun8 wrote: post #101
jimbokun wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Baseball is more popular throughout the Caribbean and Latin America than it is in the U.S., and many of the best major leaguers come from there. During the World Baseball Classic, most of the biggest names were playing for countries other than the U.S. And Japan won the tournament, both of the times it has been played so far. The best U.S. finish is fourth. I see the U.S. relationship with baseball becoming similar t…

Hmm, it's hard to agree with this. I think you're equating success in world tournaments with professional level of play, which may not be the case. As a case in point, consider the recent FIBA World Campionship: Turkey played the final with US and gave it a run for its money (at least at the start of the game). Serbia was awesome, too. The US Team didn't even make it to the final in the previous three times ( http://…

In basketball, also, the level of play has come much closer to the U.S. level. The U.S. did not win the FIBA tournament since 1994. They lost in 2006 with LeBron James, Dwayne Wade, and Carmelo Anthony. It's also important to note that several of the best non-U.S. pros sat out this tournament, also. Notably, Pau Gasol, the second best player on the champion Lakers and probably the best big man in the world right now.

The U.S. had to rethink the way they ran their national program after getting embarrassed, getting more continuity with players committing to multiple years. Wade, James, and Anthony came back after losing in 2006 to put on a dominating performance during the 2008 Olympics. I was extremely impressed with how this current team was put together, because I thought they would have trouble handling the much taller teams they would face. Instead, the U.S. smaller but quicker and more athletic players created trouble for the taller teams they faced by stealing the ball and getting out for dunks and layups. Also, Kevin Durant is a beast.

In short, I actually believe that the quality of U.S. basketball got better as a response to the improvement in the international game and the realization that it was not a glorified exhibition. That's quite the sea change from what the original Dream Team faced in 1992.

Back to baseball, here are the 2009 rosters.

http://web.worldbaseballclassic.com/rosters/index.jsp?team=u...

Just clicking around, Venezuela and the Dominican Republic are loaded with many of the most famous MLB names. The U.S. is, too, but most of the biggest U.S. baseball names I'm familiar with are on there, and they lost any way. Japan has several major leaguers and of course they have the second best professional league in the world (I don't think there's much dispute about that).

So I think with basketball we have re-asserted ourselves as the dominant world power, but only with a renewed dedication and commitment to get back to that place. I still stand behind my argument that the quality of baseball player development is now better in some other countries than the U.S. This is very much like the English Premier League, considered the best league in the world, and with many English stars, but not enough to make England a dominant football power.

And yes, maybe I think about this stuff just a little too much. :)

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