Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based • Hacker News Board

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#91

Post by spacenick88 » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 9:38 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #6

The costs are not purely economic -- you will have people struggle to read in the new script and make old texts inaccessible to young people. Additionally, this isn't a case like Chinese where Romanization has the benefit of making it easier to acquire literacy. What is the benefit of this change? I find the claim in this article that using the same script to write their language is going to bring them closer to West…

I really don't think changing the script while keeping the language is all that difficult. At least as long it has a somewhat similar glyph count. In my teens I learned about runes and was able to write my native language in runes within half an hour and fluently within 3, including reading of course. Also as a Computer Science major I have a somewhat okayish knowledge of the Greek letters and when visiting Greece I could with a bit of effort figure out the street signs without problem. Sure people will be less fluent in the one they don't use as often but I doubt it's a make hindrance

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#92

Post by panzagl » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 9:39 PM UTC

c-smile wrote: post #45

jsgo wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I speak English only. I find it much easier to translate either online or via English-to-X dictionary if the other language uses Latin script. Could it be done? I'm sure it is possible, but without previously interacting with them, not easily. I'll say this, for work I travel to Montreal at moderately regular intervals. Because everything is in French, it makes it a bit harder, but I can either: a) infer based off si…

"infer based off similarities to English words" English and French are both originated from Latin languages so are similarities. Try to read Turkish web site: http://www.mfa.gov.tr/default.tr.mfa , will its Latin alphabet help you? The site has English version so you can compare.

No, but a Latin alphabet would help a Turkish tourist in Kazakhstan.

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#93

Post by kingofhdds » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 9:42 PM UTC

fusiongyro wrote: post #37

vbezhenar wrote: post #17

I'm ethnical Russian living in Kazakhstan and I think that it's not a very wise decision. As correctly written in the article, overwhelming majority of Kazakhstani citizens speak and write Russian well. I just don't see any point with this change, but costs are tremendous, you have to rewrite every single book including learning books, you have to replace every street plate. When overwhelming majority of people speak…

From a purely linguistic standpoint, I think Kazakh is a better fit for Cyrillic than the Latin alphabet. Look at all the diacritics they have to use to make this work. But we both know the real motivations here probably do not include cleaning up the orthography.

This standpoint is not linguistic at all. Cyrillic too had to be changed, in fact, to become suitable for Kazakh.

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#94

Post by parliament32 » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 9:42 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #81

parliament32 wrote: post #46

Here's a country changing their alphabet to boost their international compatibility... now if only the US would switch to the metric system.

Not like people are going to refuse to trade with the US because we have customary units, realistically. That's the benefit of being the world's richest country and not a small Central Asian one.

Foreign trade is, interestingly enough, considered the most important reason to convert the US to the metric system: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrication_in_the_United_Stat...

Apart from trade though, this issue might cause some countries to hesitate to work with the US for scientific research or related initiatives: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Climate_Orbiter#Cause_of_...

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#95

Post by Lionsion » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 9:43 PM UTC

jsgo wrote: post #57

ibdf wrote: post #30

Next, the US will try to adopt the metric system (again).

I wish we would. Conversions would be so much simpler.

> I wish we would. Conversions would be so much simpler.

Not really, and you'd have to do it more frequently. The US already has a standard, and a lot of existing stuff built to it. Adopting the metric system isn't going to change the size of the pipes in my house's plumbing, the units in my recipes and cookbooks, etc.

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#96

Post by klez » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 9:44 PM UTC

spacenick88 wrote: post #69

klez wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ASCII with the English charset doesn't cover any Latin script based language I know of (granted, a limited set) other than English. For example it doesn't cover Italian, French, German, Spanish, Portuguese, Romanian, Czech, Vietnamese, Danish, Norwegian, Icelandic, Irish, Occitan, Croatian, etc...

It almost covers German except for ä, ö, ü and ß all of which have a very easy transliteration ae, oe, ue and ss. Similarly it almost covers Italian, French (accents can be dropped), Spanish and a couple more

That you can do transliterations doesn't make it a good idea.

> French (accents can be dropped)

What? No! See for example https://french.stackexchange.com/a/24410

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#97

Post by Symbiote » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 9:45 PM UTC

jsgo wrote: post #54

emodendroket wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cyrillic is also a phonetic alphabet and you can pretty easily add a Cyrillic keyboard to your phone or laptop. These arguments seem like they belong in a discussion of Chinese script or something similar.

a cyrillic keyboard to my laptop that I'd have to memorize what latin key it replaces. My laptop flips to French fairly regularly (machine was created with an image containing French and English keyboards) and it is frustrating as it is only easier in the sense that it is poking around for the 1 key to find e with grave or the like vs playing with keystrokes until I land on alt+0232 on numpad. Phones with touchscreen…

I tried using my phone to type words into Google Translate while in Armenia.

Typing Armenian was a non-starter. I'm not dyslexic, but felt it when faced with words that looked like "արարողակարգը" (random copy-paste from Wikipedia[1]).

The second language was often Russian, and typing in Cyrillic was a little better, especially once I found the alphabet is derived from Greek rather than Latin -- so р is r, and н is e, and п is p. But it was still 10 times slower than typing rough Vietnamese into my phone.

But anyway, this is clearly a political change, so any reasoning in favour or opposition is irrelevant.

[1] https://hy.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D5%80%D5%A1%D5%B5%D5%A5%D6%80... (Armenian Alphabet in Armenian).

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#98

Post by jacquesm » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 9:45 PM UTC

emodendroket wrote: post #84

jacquesm wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You typically do not get to pick the language of the place you are born in.

It is a figure of speech. Surely you did not think I was confused on this point.

GGGP wrote that they spoke only one language, that implies that this is their mother tongue.

So as soon as you 'pick one language' you are talking about two languages, your birth tongue and another one. This was not the case with the comment I replied to so either you are off-topic or you really are confused. So I guess you are off-topic then rather than confused?

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#99

Post by Baeocystin » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 9:46 PM UTC

DenisM wrote: post #20

90 years ago similar Latinization was attempted in Russia itself: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latinisation_in_the_Soviet_U...

Cyrillic was heavily altered to be closer to Latin script in the 18th century, too.

https://www.quora.com/What-changes-did-the-Russian-Emperor-P...

Re: Kazakhstan is changing its alphabet from Cyrillic to Latin-based

#100

Post by amaccuish » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 9:47 PM UTC

jsgo wrote: post #43

jsgo wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Okay, how about this then: If it is in Latin script, the tourists from countries with Latin-based languages can phonetically butcher whatever it is they're attempting to communicate with the other party. If it is in Cyrillic script, the tourists from countries with Latin-based languages can just stare at a person blankly or point at words on paper/signage if the other party is close enough. Provided they traveled at…

while I think it seems pretty reasonable to assume that their tourists are currently from countries with Cyrillic-based languages, they're making a concerted effort to draw more Western audiences. How that'll play out, not sure, but I don't think the premise is silly.

I can't recall a time I chose not to go to a country because their alphabet was different...