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Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?

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Re: Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?

#101

Post by Jun8 »

jimbokun wrote: post #75
Jun8 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's ( http://www.bellasugar.com/Jessica-Simpson-Eyelid-Surgery-Pri... ) a recent link on how popular double eyelid surgery is in Korea and Japan. I don't have the hard figures but I would guess that this procedure would be much more common in Korea and Japan then in China since these populations are more affluent and were heavily affected by US presence. As for baseball, most everyone agrees this is a quintessenti…

Baseball is more popular throughout the Caribbean and Latin America than it is in the U.S., and many of the best major leaguers come from there. During the World Baseball Classic, most of the biggest names were playing for countries other than the U.S. And Japan won the tournament, both of the times it has been played so far. The best U.S. finish is fourth. I see the U.S. relationship with baseball becoming similar t…

Hmm, it's hard to agree with this. I think you're equating success in world tournaments with professional level of play, which may not be the case.

As a case in point, consider the recent FIBA World Campionship: Turkey played the final with US and gave it a run for its money (at least at the start of the game). Serbia was awesome, too. The US Team didn't even make it to the final in the previous three times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FIBA_World_Championship#Results). Now, that doesn't mean that the level of basketball in these countries is better or on par with the one in US. It just means that the very good pro players see this as a waste of time and money (and chance to be injured) and don't go. I bet a similar reason applies in the case of baseball.

Re: Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?

#102

Post by elblanco »

Jun8 wrote: post #52

I have always pondered this question so I quickly went to the link and was confronted with a really weak and half-baked argument. First, this is not a question of American audiences; I'm not American and love anime but they don't look Japanese to me either. "The Other has to be marked. If there are no stereotyped markings of otherness, then white is assumed." This may be true but it has very little to do with anime.…

> How can you explain that a lot of Japanese women go through cosmetic surgery to get rid of the slant in their eyes to make them look more Western? Why is baseball so popular in Japan?

Double eyelid surgery isn't exactly about making the eye bigger. It's to emphasize a small fold between the eyelid and the Epicanthic fold. It's considered beautiful to see just a small sliver of the eyelid from underneath the fold, and in many East Asians, the fold tends to grow too low. Additionally, as people age, the skin of the fold tends to sag and people may want some of it removed in order to open their eyes up.

From wikipedia "The procedure of reducing or removing epicanthic folds is epicanthoplasty. It is now an extremely rare procedure. Blepharoplasty, however, is not an uncommon form of cosmetic surgery in East Asia. The use of "eyelid glue" or "eyelid tape" (sometimes referred to as "eye glue" or "eye tape") is used to create the appearance of the "double eyelid" by finding a "natural fold" in the eyelid and tucking it in and holding it with an adhesive."

http://waynesword.palomar.edu/images/epican1.jpg

Re: Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?

#103

Post by ahi »

Locke1689 wrote: post #97
jimbokun wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"why are the characters in traditional Japanese paintings look very Japanese (slanted eyes, hairdo, etc.)." So modern anime characters should look more like traditional Japanese paintings? "How can you explain that a lot of Japanese women go through cosmetic surgery to get rid of the slant in their eyes to make them look more Western?" Citation? How many is "many"? "Why is baseball so popular in Japan?" Because they'…

Because they're better at it now than Americans? Actually, most still agree that the Japanese professional baseball is close but not quite at the level of American major league baseball. The top Japanese players obviously can compete at the top level in the US but most people think that Japan would probably only have enough players for a half-dozen MLB-level teams at the most.

Judging by the number of players imported from Latin America, I think the US only has enough players for a half-dozen MLB-level teams.

Re: Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?

#104

Post by rdouble »

ahi wrote: post #103
Locke1689 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they're better at it now than Americans? Actually, most still agree that the Japanese professional baseball is close but not quite at the level of American major league baseball. The top Japanese players obviously can compete at the top level in the US but most people think that Japan would probably only have enough players for a half-dozen MLB-level teams at the most.

Judging by the number of players imported from Latin America, I think the US only has enough players for a half-dozen MLB-level teams.

In the USA, Baseball is not as popular as a kid's pastime as it once was. Little leagues are having trouble getting enough kids to actually have games...

Re: Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?

#105

Post by Locke1689 »

xiongchiamiov wrote: post #98
Locke1689 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they're better at it now than Americans? Actually, most still agree that the Japanese professional baseball is close but not quite at the level of American major league baseball. The top Japanese players obviously can compete at the top level in the US but most people think that Japan would probably only have enough players for a half-dozen MLB-level teams at the most.

The population of Japan is significantly lower than that of the US.

So what? Most of the players in the MLB aren't of US citizenship. I was comparing American and Japanese professional baseball. The citizenship of the players is irrelevant.

Re: Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?

#106

Post by Locke1689 »

ahi wrote: post #103
Locke1689 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they're better at it now than Americans? Actually, most still agree that the Japanese professional baseball is close but not quite at the level of American major league baseball. The top Japanese players obviously can compete at the top level in the US but most people think that Japan would probably only have enough players for a half-dozen MLB-level teams at the most.

Judging by the number of players imported from Latin America, I think the US only has enough players for a half-dozen MLB-level teams.

As I said in a cousin comment, the nationality of the players is irrelevant. I would count non-Japanese citizens playing in the NPB as members of Japanese professional baseball, just as I count Mo as a member of the MLB.

Re: Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?

#107

Post by derefr »

jseliger wrote: post #99
derefr wrote: post #84

I'm going to give what is probably a very contrarian view here: scientific studies show that Caucasian features allow for a higher standard deviation than Asian features. (That is to say, both Asian and Caucasian test groups think two randomly-sampled Asians look more similar than two randomly-sampled Caucasians.) When you have 10 or 20 characters, and want them to be recognizable at a glance (for brand ownership), e…

Something I learned in a journalism class relates to this: "I'm going to give what is probably a very contrarian view here: scientific studies show that Caucasian features allow for a higher standard deviation than Asian features." Don't just claim "scientific studies say X;" cite studies Y, Z, and A. I'm not saying that your claim is wrong, but it sounds implausible to me, and I suspect that, if such studies exist,…

You're quite right, of course--but I think that, in any case where the person actually has access to a study they mention (and isn't, say, typing this reply on a phone while in gridlock on public transit), they would simply cite it, as it would strengthen their argument at no cost. Thus, you can take any assertion, including mine, that mentions that "studies say", as simply positing that there could be studies of such a type, and exploring the any implications made possible by that assumption.

In this particular case, I believe the best I can give you is that I heard it from a science podcast of some sort.

Re: Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?

#108

Post by derefr »

derefr wrote: post #83
shaunfs wrote: post #45

I have to admit, I always wondered why Naruto was a blue-eyed blonde white kid. This article helped me consider some of my own reasoning. I had just assumed Naruto had characters that reflected a mix of races instead of one race. The last sentence of this article is offensive though. It's a derogatory generalization. Personally it doesn't matter to me what the characters look like and I don't see why someone relating…

Actually, he's blonde for the same reason that a lot of male ankle protagonists are: because, as an asian teenager, dying one's hair blonde and showing up starkly against a sea of black hair marks you as rebellious --and thus, in Japan especially where "the nail that stands up gets hammered down", gets you treated with a bit more disdain by both peers and elders. For younger kids who feel out of place for all the reg…

(And, in case anyone is confused: iPhones don't know the word anime.)

Re: Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?

#109

Post by stcredzero »

BobbyH wrote: post #4

The post makes a good point, but it does overlook the fact that the "Godfather of Anime", Osamu Tezuka ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osamu_Tezuka ) was heavily influenced by Walt Disney and American animation. For instance, the Wikipedia article notes: "The distinctive "large eyes" style of Japanese animation was invented by Tezuka, drawing inspirations on cartoons of the time such as Betty Boop and Walt Disney's Ba…

At one panel, some anthropology academic/author was talking about the influence of "I Dream of Jeanie" and "Bewitched." Since we destroyed a lot of Japanese infrastructure, the cheapest way to broadcast television in Japan for many years was to dub shows from the United States. Supposedly, an entire generation was imprinted with dubbed US TV. The magical girl genre traces its lineage to those two shows.

Combine the Tezuka/Disney influence with this, and the human instinct to regard large eyes as signals of childhood and cuteness, and the result simply makes sense.

In any case, "Asian" features aren't always as pronounced as westerners imagine them to be. There's not that much genetic distance between the so-called races. "Black" in the US is actually a hugely diverse group all by itself. (There was a Newsweek cover that demonstrated this nicely a few years back.)

(The protagonist of Golgo 13 is said to be indeterminately Spanish or Japanese.)

Re: Why do the Japanese draw themselves as white?

#110

Post by brc »

edanm wrote: post #79
Jun8 wrote: post #52

I have always pondered this question so I quickly went to the link and was confronted with a really weak and half-baked argument. First, this is not a question of American audiences; I'm not American and love anime but they don't look Japanese to me either. "The Other has to be marked. If there are no stereotyped markings of otherness, then white is assumed." This may be true but it has very little to do with anime.…

Honestly, Japanese anime characters do not look western to me. They look Japanese, but that's probably because I'm used to seeing them in anime! I don't see how classic Japanese drawings have anything to do with it; different styles of drawing grew up in different cultures, I expect, and not just because of the different look of people from those culture. As for the baseball question, I don't think it makes much sens…

Small correction : Great Britain refers to the group of islands also referred to as the British Isles. Great Britain is a geographical reference. The full name of the UK is 'The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland'. Hence 'British' is a generic term for anyone from the British Isles, although it tends to be used to describe English people, though technically Welsh and Scottish people are also British. This is similar how 'American' refers to citizens of the United States, even though technically anyone from Alaska to Argentina is American.

So you can't be a former part of Great Britain unless there is some major tectonic activity!

The correct term would be 'former British Colonies', or perhaps, beter still, 'former members of the British Empire' or even 'Commonwealth nations'. Even these have problems because most of the Northeast USA was once part of the British Empire. And, curiously, Canadians never really went for Cricket despite still being in the commonwealth. I guess it's difficult when the fields are under snow for half the year.

Your point stands - cultural traditions can take root in any place, and don't necessarily imply a worship of the parent culture. It probably has more to do with a filling a cultural need with a pre-created product than anything else. You could reverse the trend and ask why so many young people are into the 'import' car scene : which generally means Japanese cars. Is this a worship of Japanese culture or just young people finding that Japanese performance cars are cheaper and more accessible?

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