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Apple will start paying $21B in back taxes to Ireland

businessinsider.com

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Re: Apple will start paying $21B in back taxes to Ireland

#61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not any less crazy than being in a monetary union where you do not control your own currency or inflation and where the body who does (ECB) is technically outside of the political system and out of reach of both the national and EU electorates. Essentially because of the above what you call crazy is the only option for those countries to survive. When you can’t make yourself cheaper than Germany because of the Euro t…

Why is that odder than the Bank of England, which sets interest rates and is also technically outside of the political system.

Because the Bank of England controls the pound and everyone one who works for it are answerable to the electorate in one way or another.

On the other hand a Eurozone member cannot set it's own interest rates, inflation, can't restructure it's own debt, doesn't control it's exchange rates etc. It takes away nearly all the financial tools a country has.

Do you know why you need to bail out Ireland? because it doesn't have access to these tools, It can't restructure it's own debt and it can't control it's own currency and exchange rates to settle it and any changes to the Euro which might be a net positive to Ireland would be global and could often result in a net negative to other Eurozone members like Germany.

Lets take exchange rates for or example.

They have the same exchange rate which means that if Ireland and Germany want to export potatoes they both get paid at the same rate in their local currency.

This is a huge deal because it prevents one country from being more competitive than another as it would lose too much on the exchange rates.

This essentially takes away an important tool that countries have which is being competitive on export by reducing their prices but maintaining a good local revenue through favorable exchange rates.

And while it might appear "fair" it's not because fixed exchange rates favor larger economies like Germany which can be competitive more competitive due to simply their sheer production capacity.

Next you have imports again the exchange rate is fixed, also the import taxes are fixed so importing goods into Ireland would cost as much as to Germany excluding other marginal costs which again is a problem because Germany is a larger market, it's closer to the Netherlands which is the major port into the EU, it's on the mainland which give it easier access to the med as well as a land route to Russia, Turkey and beyond.

Now lets look at another example debt restructuring.

Lets look at both "internal" and "external" debt, in this regard internal means in your own local currency and external means in a foreign currency.

Internal debt you can repay by well simply "printing more money", sure you can't go wild with that but this is something all countries do all the time they play with interest rates and many other levers and reduce their debt at the expense of higher short term inflation.

External debt again if you control the exchange rates and control the supply of your own currency you have much better tools for debt restructuring.

And these are just the most crude and basic examples there are benefits to the Eurozone but you do take away most of not all of the tools countries have of managing their own financial and monetary policy. You also cannot make adjustments that you could make otherwise because you now have to set a unified policy across all member countries.

Re: Apple will start paying $21B in back taxes to Ireland

#63
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Monetary union without a fiscal union. It is a slightly odd position, but most countries aren't ready for the sovereignty transfer implied by centralising fiscal policy. The politics of paying for Greek pensions just doesn't work.

Those politics will likely never work.

I think eventually this will lead to the breakup of the Euro... Fixed exchange rates generally don't work long-term without fiscal transfers to balance things out (like the US's federal budget does for the states). I don't think the EU can keep this up for that much longer - at some point they'll either have to consolidate fiscally or break up the monetary union.

Re: Apple will start paying $21B in back taxes to Ireland

#64

I'm glad this is happening, hope they'll close this Double Irish Dutch Sandwich loophole for good.

I don’t. Not unless European countries plan to lower taxes. High tax rates are what causes these accountancy gymnastics. If the EU just charged a flat 10% tax — and actually enforced it, tax revenues would rise and these loopholes would be unneeded. Foreign companies would actually relocate to Europe by choice and not by necessity. Unemployment would also drop as a result. Business would boom.

This is a different problem though. Sure thing, EU should work on improving the imperfect system; for what it's worth I personally think the EU state is little too socialist and too safe, if you will.

But this isolated issue with this particular tax dodging scheme should be solved separately, as should "lowering tax rate", "reducing unemployment" et al.

Enforcing law is different job than making law.

Re: Apple will start paying $21B in back taxes to Ireland

#65

I'm glad this is happening, hope they'll close this Double Irish Dutch Sandwich loophole for good.

I don’t. Not unless European countries plan to lower taxes. High tax rates are what causes these accountancy gymnastics. If the EU just charged a flat 10% tax — and actually enforced it, tax revenues would rise and these loopholes would be unneeded. Foreign companies would actually relocate to Europe by choice and not by necessity. Unemployment would also drop as a result. Business would boom.

According to certain theoretical frameworks... Empirically though there generally isn't any causal relationship demonstrated between corporate tax rates and wages, economic growth, or unemployment in most statistical data.

This is a really big debate in Australia at the moment, a lobby group made up of large corporates (the Business Council of Australia) is campaigning heavily for a tax cut given the recent Trump cuts. So there's been a lot of examination of this data and the best they have is intuitive arguments ("of course if there's more profits you'll have more investment and employment") but they admitted in a Senate enquiry just yesterday that they didn't actually have any demonstrable statistical evidence that tax cuts have caused employment growth, wage growth or increased investment in any developed economy.

Re: Apple will start paying $21B in back taxes to Ireland

#66
post #14
post #11

It's weird that the EU has a monetary union, but so much difference in corporate income tax rates. Great that IE is 12%, but this "competition" is BS in the sense that they needed the higher-tax countries to bail them out just a few years ago: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-2008_Irish_banking_crisis It's a leak in the EU system, and it needs to be plugged. Just imagine what a unified income tax rate in the EU wou…

Agreed, this is something we at http://volteuropa.org are working towards! Unified tax rates would greatly reduce the burden of setting up and running a business in the EU.

Unified tax rates in the eurozone will just make smaller poorer countries uncompetitive funnelling all the money to manufacturing powerhouses with high purchasing power like Germany.

Re: Apple will start paying $21B in back taxes to Ireland

#67
post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely, I agree 100% One year I made a mistake on my taxes and my refund was $1000 more than it should have been. Six months later not only was I fined for the mistake and forced to pay back the $1000, I had to pay interest on that $1000. (Canada) This year when the government owed me $6000 in overpaid taxes, why didn't they pay me interest on my money they were holding...?

Because your taxes are your duty. In the US, if you don't file for a year and are owed, after the filing period they do pay interest. But not for the initial filing year. In fact, if you over pay too much, they (the IRS) can penalize you for that as well.

Their is no penalty for overpaying your taxes unless you mean the implicit loss of the time value of the money overpaid.

Anyone who's been "penalized" for overpaying their taxes was actually underpaying their taxes prior to their overpayment. People don't realize that taxes are generally due over the course of the year (usually quarterly), not all at once on April 15/16/17. The April deadline is just the due date for the final payment of your prior year's tax liability. If you were underpaying during the year, you could be penalized for that even if you overpaid in April the following year.

This is why trying to game your withholding on your wages (i.e., minimal or underwithholding) is such a bad idea. Any gain (i.e., investing in stocks) is usually more than offset by the penalties and interest you pay if you end up being wrong about how much in taxes you owed. The stock market would have to have a very bullish year to see an upside, usually better than 10% growth--and the target just goes up as interest rates go up.

Re: Apple will start paying $21B in back taxes to Ireland

#69
post #31

> Apple was hit by the European Commission with a $21 billion bill for back taxes in 2016. > It’s starting to pay the funds You know, I was fined for not paying my installments (not my taxes! just my installments) in 2017 and these guys didn't pay their back taxes for two bloody years and were not charged hefty penalties and interest for it. Really, blood boiling unfair.

There's a big difference, Apple was directly told by Irish government these taxes aren't required. Apple is paying extra taxes after it was ruled that Ireland was incorrect. Why should Apple be fined for what Ireland did wrong?

You are required to pay the installments on time all the time, nothing has changed in the last several years related to this.

The analog would be: IRS told you that you didn't have to pay the installment this year but next year instead. A court then said IRS was wrong, you have to pay back taxes. You wouldn't be fined because IRS was wrong this time.

Re: Apple will start paying $21B in back taxes to Ireland

#70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because your taxes are your duty. In the US, if you don't file for a year and are owed, after the filing period they do pay interest. But not for the initial filing year. In fact, if you over pay too much, they (the IRS) can penalize you for that as well.

Their is no penalty for overpaying your taxes unless you mean the implicit loss of the time value of the money overpaid. Anyone who's been "penalized" for overpaying their taxes was actually underpaying their taxes prior to their overpayment. People don't realize that taxes are generally due over the course of the year (usually quarterly), not all at once on April 15/16/17. The April deadline is just the due date for…

It must have been some quarterly business stuff that stuck in my head.
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