Startup School Beijing • Hacker News Board

Re: Startup School Beijing

#31

Post by opportune » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 11:16 AM UTC

SuperNinKenDo wrote: post #24

I'm disappointed to know that YC has drank the cool-aid on China. Once you invest significantly in China, you quickly find yourselves beholden to the whims of the CCP. And for what? Such privileges as building their dystopian techno-autocracy for them? I don't see any signs in this statement that you are going into this with your eyes open to either the difficulties this will cause down the line, nor the morally "que…

Agreed, investing in China is the "invading Russia" of the tech world. Yes, China is a huge market and a rapidly growing economy, which makes investing there an extremely appetizing prospect. However, it seems very difficult for non-chinese to be able to hold onto their investments in China without their business being ripped off (e.g. having the business model copied by a more Chinese company that gets favorable government treatment and takes over the nascent market), not to mention the political uncertainty of having to deal with / win the favor of arbitrary officials in the Chinese government that may have interests conflicting with your own.

And even if you are successful, you have to consider the ethics of what you're enabling - suppose you create a wildly successful and helpful service for Chinese people that involves users' geographic data, private messages between individuals, or financial transactions. You won't get a say in turning over that data to authorities for any and every reason that they have for wanting it. Are you willing to actively participate in corruption and the quashing of political dissent for money?

Re: Startup School Beijing

#32

Post by laumars » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 11:19 AM UTC

zfdrdg wrote: post #10

staticelf wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why lol?

Not sure what the parent comment meant but maybe because software jobs will start to move to lower earning locations. I've been wondering about this. Manufacturing has largely moved off shore over the last 40 years but software seems much easier to move. Could the whole industry disappear from the first world at a much faster rate?

Eastern Europe are far cheaper to outsource to and that practice already happens for some UK businesses.

Re: Startup School Beijing

#33

Post by throw2016 » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 11:20 AM UTC

SuperNinKenDo wrote: post #24

I'm disappointed to know that YC has drank the cool-aid on China. Once you invest significantly in China, you quickly find yourselves beholden to the whims of the CCP. And for what? Such privileges as building their dystopian techno-autocracy for them? I don't see any signs in this statement that you are going into this with your eyes open to either the difficulties this will cause down the line, nor the morally "que…

This is jingoism masquerading as concern for autocracy. If people really cared about things like surveillance or dystopias in any serious way they would be on the streets about the extensively documented activities of the NSA, rubber stamp courts, secret orders, searching through personal effects at borders and campaigning for Snowden and other whistle blowers to be brought back with honors.

But on the ground these laws are renewed without protest, whistle blowers are hounded and demonized with little to no push back and dissenters like Snowden and Assange continue to be stranded for years on end.

If no one seems to care enough about these issues in our own countries or our own dissenters how can concern for others countries be authentic. Don't use fabricated concerns to demonize others.

Re: Startup School Beijing

#34

Post by api » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 11:21 AM UTC

SuperNinKenDo wrote: post #24

I'm disappointed to know that YC has drank the cool-aid on China. Once you invest significantly in China, you quickly find yourselves beholden to the whims of the CCP. And for what? Such privileges as building their dystopian techno-autocracy for them? I don't see any signs in this statement that you are going into this with your eyes open to either the difficulties this will cause down the line, nor the morally "que…

I've become rather disturbed by the amount of pro-autocratic sentiment I've encountered in tech circles. It comes in both the "right" (and "alt-right") and "left" varieties, as well as a few other weirder forms, but it's there.

I guess hackers are no different from anyone else. Dangle money in front of people and they do tend to toss their morals out the window more often than not. I am not claiming that I am superior either. If someone offered me a shitload of money to do something I considered unethical, I can't say with 100% certainty that I'd never take it... to claim so would be the fallacy of self-exclusion. "I might be a coward I've just never been tested." - The Mighty Mighty Bosstones / The Impression That I Get

I've also anecdotally observed that people with high IQs are often autocrats. They're prone to imagining that there are straightforward solutions to all the worlds problems and that all these problems could be solved if only things were run by smart people like them. They haven't yet been humbled by attempting to solve a really brutal multi-objective optimization problem or tame a complex system full of paradoxical effects and feedback loops. Attempting to govern a complex society is both of these things.

Re: Startup School Beijing

#35

Post by DanielBMarkham » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 11:22 AM UTC

opportune wrote: post #31

SuperNinKenDo wrote: post #24

I'm disappointed to know that YC has drank the cool-aid on China. Once you invest significantly in China, you quickly find yourselves beholden to the whims of the CCP. And for what? Such privileges as building their dystopian techno-autocracy for them? I don't see any signs in this statement that you are going into this with your eyes open to either the difficulties this will cause down the line, nor the morally "que…

Agreed, investing in China is the "invading Russia" of the tech world. Yes, China is a huge market and a rapidly growing economy, which makes investing there an extremely appetizing prospect. However, it seems very difficult for non-chinese to be able to hold onto their investments in China without their business being ripped off (e.g. having the business model copied by a more Chinese company that gets favorable gov…

"And even if you are successful, you have to consider the ethics of what you're enabling..."

This is the thing I don't understand. Ten years ago, you could make a case that simply by making stuff people want, the world would become more connected, all sorts of goodness will happen.

You can no longer make that case. People are not idiots. They see both the good and bad that tech has brought.

Technology companies are ethically responsible for what their tools end up doing. And if they can't be bothered to develop their own ethics, the rest of us are going to have to develop some for them.

I must be missing something. YC is a really smart bunch of guys. Certainly they know what the hell they're getting into.

Re: Startup School Beijing

#36

Post by d4rti » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 11:26 AM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #35

opportune wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, investing in China is the "invading Russia" of the tech world. Yes, China is a huge market and a rapidly growing economy, which makes investing there an extremely appetizing prospect. However, it seems very difficult for non-chinese to be able to hold onto their investments in China without their business being ripped off (e.g. having the business model copied by a more Chinese company that gets favorable gov…

"And even if you are successful, you have to consider the ethics of what you're enabling..." This is the thing I don't understand. Ten years ago, you could make a case that simply by making stuff people want, the world would become more connected, all sorts of goodness will happen. You can no longer make that case. People are not idiots. They see both the good and bad that tech has brought. Technology companies are e…

> The most amazing thing about Silicon Valley is that they all think they are on the left side of the political spectrum, while it is totally unquestioned that the venture capital firms should make every single decision on how human activity is organized.

Existentialist Comics https://twitter.com/existentialcoms/status/98887750761196748...

Re: Startup School Beijing

#37

Post by api » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 11:28 AM UTC

throw2016 wrote: post #33

SuperNinKenDo wrote: post #24

I'm disappointed to know that YC has drank the cool-aid on China. Once you invest significantly in China, you quickly find yourselves beholden to the whims of the CCP. And for what? Such privileges as building their dystopian techno-autocracy for them? I don't see any signs in this statement that you are going into this with your eyes open to either the difficulties this will cause down the line, nor the morally "que…

This is jingoism masquerading as concern for autocracy. If people really cared about things like surveillance or dystopias in any serious way they would be on the streets about the extensively documented activities of the NSA, rubber stamp courts, secret orders, searching through personal effects at borders and campaigning for Snowden and other whistle blowers to be brought back with honors. But on the ground these l…

I think this is "whataboutism."

America's respect for individual liberty and the rule of law has eroded over the years, but it is still considerably stronger than what's found in China. You see some of the same corruption and autocratic tendencies on both sides of the Pacific but there is a substantial difference in degree and pervasiveness. We are not the best in the world (several EU countries are better) but claiming the USA is equivalent to the PRC just lowers the bar.

In China many of the kinds of open anti-state discussions that happen regularly here would get people arrested, not to mention criticism of leadership. Try talking openly about Xi Jinpeng the way lots of Americans talk about Donald Trump (or talked about Barack Obama). I was driving around Irvine, CA the other day and saw an anti-anti-immigration protest with signs comparing Trump to a chimpanzee and Hitler. Do that in China in an affluent section of Beijing. Dare you.

Edit: you can also buy Donald Trump Piñatas in Santa Ana, a heavily Hispanic area of LA/OC metro. Try selling a Xi Jinpeng piñata in Beijing.

Re: Startup School Beijing

#38

Post by nieksand » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 11:28 AM UTC

throw2016 wrote: post #33

SuperNinKenDo wrote: post #24

I'm disappointed to know that YC has drank the cool-aid on China. Once you invest significantly in China, you quickly find yourselves beholden to the whims of the CCP. And for what? Such privileges as building their dystopian techno-autocracy for them? I don't see any signs in this statement that you are going into this with your eyes open to either the difficulties this will cause down the line, nor the morally "que…

This is jingoism masquerading as concern for autocracy. If people really cared about things like surveillance or dystopias in any serious way they would be on the streets about the extensively documented activities of the NSA, rubber stamp courts, secret orders, searching through personal effects at borders and campaigning for Snowden and other whistle blowers to be brought back with honors. But on the ground these l…

It seems very fashionable to pull out moral equivalency every time China's autocracy and misbehavior is mentioned.

Simple experiment:

1. Walk down Pennsylvania Avenue with a sign that says "Trump is a pussy grabber who should be impeached". 2. Go to Tiananmen Square and hold up a poster-sized picture from the 1989 massacre.

See how equivalent the governments are then.

(As an aside... if I was employed by the Chinese government to spread propaganda in other countries, your comment is roughly what I'd write).

Re: Startup School Beijing

#39

Post by goseeastarwar » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 11:29 AM UTC

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #35

opportune wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, investing in China is the "invading Russia" of the tech world. Yes, China is a huge market and a rapidly growing economy, which makes investing there an extremely appetizing prospect. However, it seems very difficult for non-chinese to be able to hold onto their investments in China without their business being ripped off (e.g. having the business model copied by a more Chinese company that gets favorable gov…

"And even if you are successful, you have to consider the ethics of what you're enabling..." This is the thing I don't understand. Ten years ago, you could make a case that simply by making stuff people want, the world would become more connected, all sorts of goodness will happen. You can no longer make that case. People are not idiots. They see both the good and bad that tech has brought. Technology companies are e…

Cash Rules Everything Around Me

So says Wu-Tang Clan and apparently YC.

Re: Startup School Beijing

#40

Post by jlg23 » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 11:30 AM UTC

I am amazed by the negativity in the comments. China is a very specific environment with its own rules - just like the US or Europe.

There you need to maintain good relations with the party, in the western world it is government officials (preferably those who are not voted into office and thus stick around).

Entering such a new, different playing field should tickle every entrepreneur's nerves.

Edit: How we fail, esp. in the fb- and now Google debate, that most of the tech we develop is dual-use and can be turned against us in an instant, escapes me.