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Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

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Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#661

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think unless you're prideful enough to believe you can identify someone's level of productivity from a short conversation, it's probably better to see the proof. Again, why would I settle for a conversation when I can ask for first-hand proof? It's like a judge dismissing concrete evidence and just basing their verdict on the circumstantial. Sure, it's likely to be right most of the time, but what about when it isn…

>I think unless you're prideful enough to believe you can identify someone's level of productivity None of the techniques discussed in this article are even attempting to judge productivity, they are attempts to judge coding ability. It's good that you bring up productivity though; that's what we are really after, isn't it? >from a short conversation I'd argue 30 minutes to an hour is not a short conversation. Do you…

I absolute agree with you.

I have no idea where the idea that having someone come on site for 6+ hours wasting a dozen peoples time became the norm as opposed to talking to someone for 1 or 2 hours and truly speaking with them to understand what they know.

You're completely right, if you can't talk shop and not know when someone is bullshitting you shouldn't be the one interviewing.

How would this even fly in other industries? Are you telling me that someone can bluff their way discussing the intricacies of surgery to other surgeons without looking like a moron? Or discussing particle physics with a researcher and stand on equal footing? I honestly want to hear a conversation where a liar with no programming skills is able to convince a Senior level Software Engineer that they are on equal skill sets.

The best interview experience I had, where I eventually worked for the company, was having an hour conversation with the Engineering Manager who I would be working under then being ask basic programming Qs based on our conversation we had. Everyone in the company was interviewed the same way. IMO the resulting team was very professional and skilled on various levels from various backgrounds. I actually felt like a human at that job and not a person hired because of x thing.

I'll never forget I had an interview where they asked me a question about finding anagrams. At that moment in my life, I've never heard of an anagram or knew what it was. The Interviewer then explaining what it was to me made me feel very humiliated. I completely bombed every question because I had the audacity to not know about this thing where the interviewers knew about thing therefore I should know thing as well. I immediately understood how cultural biases can effect candidates getting jobs. I can only imagine how worst it is for people not from traditional backgrounds in this industry.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#662
I could've written this exact post myself as I'm going through the process right now. So thank you for taking time to share and building the hound! Kudos.

As for the presently en Vogue hiring process for senior tech roles, I'd put a deserved blame on companies like Google, where this bookish and silly way of hiring was first codified by the founders and early employees who were fresh grads/drop outs from schools - and that's all they knew about how to judge who's better in class. And as more and more of people who went through that process leave and start their own companies, they follow the same process - thinking that's the best of breed way to hire.

As for age discrimination - it's very much alive and well - specifically in the SF Bay area. Which is a shame.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#663
I agree in full with this article. I too have been freelancing for > 4 years, handling whole startups' software needs myself, and am faced with the exact same gauntlet of perplexing steps. My experience parallels the author's perfectly. Now we just get asymmetrical experiences on 1) number of highly qualified candidates for a job and 2) job creators' belief that not enough qualified candidates are available for the job.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#664

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... because we have no industry wide, respected entrance exam. This. In fact there needs to be one exam, with subsections and subscores per subsection, along with an overall score. Being able to solve an algorithmic challenge on a whiteboard does not mean that you can: a) write readable and maintainable code b) effectively communicate requirements to whoever is actually running your code in production c) know about…

How would you test, "in a certifiable way", just the first of your examples "write readable and maintainable code"?

The SAT has a writing section - there is no reason you can't write code on a standardized test.

The idea is to assign low points to people who write a long function, and high points to people who write many small, self-documenting functions. Such an exam could also ask questions like "what is the cyclometric complexity of the following code?", which while not an indicator that the test taker will always write low-complexity code in a professional environment, at least indicates that the test taker is aware of maintainability metrics like cyclometric complexity - much more than can be said of programmers who mindlessly turn in 400 line functions with deeply nested conditionals.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#665

> Number 7: Companies Really Want to Know Your Salary; Don’t tell Them This can easily result in wasting your time interviewing for companies that will never be willing to meet your salary expectations. Unfortunately, a lot of companies aren't up-front about how much they're willing to offer, so I'm not sure what the solution is.

They don't know how much they are willing to offer. You wouldn't get much out of a salary answer like this:

"Each interviewer grades you as 1 to 5. We sum that up, then multiply by $10,000."

Even knowing the number of interviewers wouldn't help you very much. You'd need to know how well the interviewers would score you, which won't be determined until after the interview.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#666

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've had this question and replied with: const isPalindrome(str) { return str === str.split('').reverse().join(''); } And the post interview notes said bad performance on the isPalindrome() question since I didn't write out my own functions (interviewer did not mention to).

To be fair, if you wanted to do a performant implementation, this is probably a more expensive implementation. The expected response is generally for you to iterate over the string and construct a count map of how many times a character appears in a string, and then iterate over the keys of that object and have at most one odd number in the values of the count map. The interviewer probably should have probed you abou…

You're thinking of an anagram, not a palindrome.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#667
The problem is symmetric, and observations will match expectations if you can treat it as such.

Put yourself in the place of the interviewer, who needs to decide on the person they will work with for the next two years. Software Engineering is already hard, and your interviewers are overworked. They are assessing whether you will be able to pull your weight. Their livelihoods are in this at least as much as yours, if not more. Interviewing is no different from cases where you have limited information to decide on a critical issue, like buying a house, choosing a surgeon, voting for town mayor. You have to separate the important flaws from the minor ones, assess the risk, and pick the candidate that is the best investment.

When you are in a technical interview, you are rarely assessed for some generic software engineer ideal, but for skills that the hiring team have in mind. The chances are very low that there will be a match with all positions you apply to, unless you are also very selective about where you apply to on your end.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#668
I absolutely detest homework assignments, so much so that I don't use them when I hire people for my team. It's a waste of the applicant's time, and as other people have pointed out it is narrowly focused, sometimes not applicable to the entire skill set the applicant can bring to the table, and is typically trainable level material anyways.

I highly prefer to engage the person about their previous projects. Through building good rapport it's easy to determine what they've done and where their passion is focused. If they can't tell me the details of building an X app with Y interfaces and Z databases, then I can figure out they are a bullshitter with only 15-30 minutes of total time wasted. If we can get past that step then we can start talking about more interesting things, like optimizations, scaling out, and our favorite unrelated technology stack and its merits. It's shocking to me that companies feel they need to do more than this these days.

To be fair I work in an At-will state, so if by chance someone does sneak through the process we have a 3-6 month probation period where we make sure they can really do what they say they can. To date this has never been a problem.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#669
post #613
post #429

Can't fully agree in quite a few points. I understand how the author got that feeling tho. Doing interviews is always eating away at one's confidence, no matter who you are. 1. no one believes anyone can actually code - I experience quite the opposite. People expect others to be able to code just because they are currently employed as software developer. That's not true at all. Sooo many people can't. 2. Coding inter…

> A 50 year old should be architect/manager or not switch jobs. Why? What's wrong with coding when you're 50 if you like doing it? That sounds like completely prejudiced and baseless claim.

Well I don't create the rules. Think of someone who does Judo for 20 years and still only wears a yellow belt. It seems like this person has no skill. The first impression is already negative, if one has a 20 something and a 50 something competing(!) for the same position.

Also the lowest level of each money-making hierarchy is usually where the unacceptable stuff happens. In IT it's this huge amount of new languages, new frameworks, new patterns that a 50 year old usually can't get into that easily anymore, to some degree because he knows it's just a hype that will be over soon. Even being 32 years old I get that feeling quite often already.

And let's say you really want to just code. Why didn't you spend the last 25 years of your career building a network and now simply do consulting work for $300+/h instead of working as employee for less than half?

Now that I said all of it, I have to say that I actually even agree with it. Everybody should have a plan how he builds and spends his career. And "I do the same thing for 30 years" is neither a plan nor a smart thing to do in IT. You could call it the disadvantage of individualism. You're free to do what you want, but that also means you are responsible yourself to find a way that works with the reality you face.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#670
post #429

Can't fully agree in quite a few points. I understand how the author got that feeling tho. Doing interviews is always eating away at one's confidence, no matter who you are. 1. no one believes anyone can actually code - I experience quite the opposite. People expect others to be able to code just because they are currently employed as software developer. That's not true at all. Sooo many people can't. 2. Coding inter…

> PS: One side note. A senior coding position might feel age discriminatory because senior is for talented ~28 year olds to mediocre ~40 year olds. A 50 year old should be architect/manager or not switch jobs. In other words, it might feel like there's age discrimination because of the age discrimination?

If you find the best way to describe the situation in 2 words then I have no problem if you say "age discrimination". But you shouldn't use it as excuse to not get what you want.

E.g. you want to still code with 50? Then spend your 30s building a network, then go into consulting. (giving up some safety in return)

E.g. you also don't want to bother with career? Join a big, strong company in your 20s and never switch jobs. (giving up some money in return)

E.g. you rather want the flexibility and safety that comes from switching companies sometimes? Move up the ladder. (reducing the amount of time spent coding on the way up)

There is always something that can be done, and even planned for.

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