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Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

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Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#631

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We do a fizzbuzz-like question, but one we created ourselves so it's not easily google-able or memorizable. Anyone with basic coding chops should be able to solve it; it would be equivalent to a CS101 quiz. It is still shocking how many people fail it. Yes, we have to test for it. My wife is in digital marketing, her -boss-, who insists on being involved in every decision, and will override her knowledgeable subordin…

I wonder what would happen if you asked those that failed the fizzbuzz question what they DID know and wanted to demonstrate. The idea that there are flat out imposters who cannot code that have held coding jobs for more than a few months is ridiculous. Right out of college with no experience, I understand. Have you considered that: 1. People have imposter syndrome, all the time. They're stressed out about being able…

"I've always passed Fizzbuzz tests"

You just negated your entire point there.

Yeah, you can have a bad day. I get it. We all fail interviews; I certainly have. Some I feel we really weren't a match (they were looking for a kind of developer that I wasn't, and don't want, to be), others I felt were unfair (for instance, interviewing with Microsoft years back, I had a C/C++ interviewer asking me questions that I had been told I was allowed to write in Java, and then disbelieving me when I told him (String).length is constant time so it didn't affect the Big O complexity that I had 'for (int i=0;iWe first give people a take home. It's at their own convenience, we tell them it will be an hour and a half, coding, simple questions, to do it at a time they're comfortable. We don't stay on the phone, we tell them to use whatever resources they want (except, obviously, please don't try and google for the answers directly, or get help from others; it's simple enough that those who have tried to cheat have ended up with it being hilariously obvious, like leaving source comments that said it was by someone else, or variables for 'cat' when we never asked for anything related to cats, or being caught out during the whiteboard).

The interview is mostly a conversation. It starts with conversation. We talk about the position, the company. We ask about what the candidate is looking for, their resume, that sort of thing. Only after thirty minutes or so do we get to anything technical. We ask a few questions, and they're intended to be placeholders for conversation; plenty of right answers, we mostly want to see that the person is knowledgeable enough to discuss things. Even when we get to questions that have a right answer, it's mostly to gauge knowledge, and for the more complicated, even if a person gets it wrong, we'll tell them what the right answer is, and then ask them for a rational as to why. If they can figure out the rational, that's just as good as having known in the first place. Then we have a whiteboard question. It, too, is not hard. We tell the candidate "If you think there's a library function that will help, but you just don't remember it, you'd need to Google it, that sort of thing, talk it out with us, we'll give it to you". We try to help suggest things to get candidates unstuck. Etc.

Really, it's -not- a particularly antagonistic process. We really, really do want people to succeed (because, frankly, we want the position filled so we can stop interviewing and go back to work). So, yeah, if the interviewer doesn't manage the trivial coding tasks...we're going to pass. We -aren't- saying "this person is a bad developer", we -are- saying "this person could not demonstrate that they passed the bar of our interview process".

But there have also been some who have flat out said, even on the take home "I can't do this". Or those who have admitted when faced with the whiteboard question that they don't know how; that the take home had been done by someone else. Etc. Given those situations, yeah, our candidates are being given a take home, and a whiteboard.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The only thing I've found to help with this sales funnel is... to know a lot of people, and to invest time in networking. It sucks because in a meritocratic system it shouldn't work this way, but it does. I'm neck deep in my job search, and I'm getting to the HR interview at rates around 30-40%, but that's because I'm getting to the HR interview at rates near 90% where I was able to get someone to refer me or send my…

HR is filtering - in my experience - 100s or 1000s of people for a single role (or small handful of roles). That you are seeing 30-40% HR interview rates shows you've got something on your resume (or your referrals) that's pushing your resume higher on the stack.

Oh for sure, I was just pointing out just how drastic the HR filter can be. I might have thought referrals would make a 2x difference in rates of getting an interview right? But no... it's much more stark than I personally expected.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#633
post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I recently interviewed at a big tech company (phone interview). I spent quite some time practicing on leetcode (completed at least 150 problems). During the interview, it took me a few minutes of thinking before completing the assignments with what I think was the expected solution. We discussed the complexity and a few possible variations. The interview sounded satisfied and I really had the feeling that I had naile…

As someone that does lots of coding phone interviews I can say that yes, time is a factor. But it's relative, ie I'm comparing you to the time it took other candidates to solve the same problem. After all, we have to evaluate you, over the phone, in the course of less than an hour. If 2 candidates arrive to the optimal solution, the one that did it much faster is the better candidate. It sounds to me like you did pre…

> If 2 candidates arrive to the optimal solution, the one that did it much faster is the better candidate.

This is _a_ metric but I wouldn't bet too much on it. I know lots of people that come to optimal solutions to "algorithm type" _much_ faster than I do. I'm pretty slow at that type of stuff. But... its just such a small part of what makes someone a good programmer. Building out a medium to large application requires balancing a lot of trade offs and figuring out how to keep things simple. I know seasoned, quality algorithm solvers who honestly just repeatedly churn out garbage applications. And they can tank the productivity of an entire team of developers in their wake. I don't know how you test for that, but I can promise phone screening for problem solution time isn't it.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#634
I try to write up each job interview I do, if it goes badly. Here are two writes up, the first at Adaptly.com and the second at JustWorks.com:

Embarrassing code I wrote under stress at a job interview (at Adaptly)

http://www.smashcompany.com/technology/embarrassing-code-i-w...

The JustWorks job interview

http://www.smashcompany.com/technology/the-justworks-job-int...

I agree the job finding process has gotten slower and slower. Personal connections are becoming more and more important. The industry is not as open as it was 20 years ago.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#635

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 99% of my candidates can code, as in iterate over collections, write case statements, and call functions. Honestly, that's way too trivial to call "can code". I usually ask something less trivial, yet still extremely easy like "a function to check if a string is a palindrome" (I explain what a palindrome is) or "check if a substring exists in a given string". You wouldn't believe how many people "with 10 years expe…

How often do you need to write palindrome functions for your job? Checking substring in a string is a 1 liner in languages like python. I was at a final interview with FAANG. One question asked was to load a csv. I used pandas, it's a 1 liner. You could see the wretched face of the interviewer since he was expecting a with open() as f: do_some_shit and kept pushing me to write this on the board. I looked at him and s…

Ah. Did I not mention that these CSV files I wanted you to parse... they're generated by an old mainframe system we can't modify the sourcecode to. It does have a few idiosyncracies - for fields like addresses which can contain commas, it uses a special escape sequence where the field just consists of three asterisks, then the value for that field is the content of the next line. Oh, and it uses just CR characters for linebreaks. In EBCDIC.

Can your pandas library handle that?

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#636
Actually weird differences in culture. I'm from Belgium and this is a contracting environment. You just hire engineers on contracting basis. Easy to fire them if they're not doing a good job. The reason why we like it is because it pays much better then being an employee.

Because it is so easy to cut bad engineers the hiring process is much easier. As long as it pays well I don't mind the insecurity of working on this basis...

Another upside of working like this is I can leave toxic environments quite easy too :)

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#637

To take a more nuanced view, I think there is an important distinction, frequently lost, between "can't code" -- which is all too common in practice -- and "can't easily code a stream-of-consciousness solution to a synthetic problem unrelated to anything I've ever built". Or its close cousin "can't easily code a toy solution to your toy problem since I've only worked on massively scalable versions of the same problem…

Most engineers would not hire themselves. That has been apparent to me for awhile now. I’m not sure why they expect people to be to be better than they were when they were hired. I don’t expect engineers to be better than me. I have but one qualification. Can they do the job? Are they strong enough that I can guide them into the position I need them at if it is required. So much focus has been put on 10x this and hig…

> Most engineers would not hire themselves... I’m not sure why they expect people to be to be better than they were when they were hired.

I wonder how much of that comes from being exposed to all of the consequences any poor decisions they made shortly after they were first hired.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#638

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I once got knocked out of the running by a whiteboard-coding interview question that went something like "How would you find all triples from a list of a million integers, where the first two numbers add up to the third?" I said, "Hmmm that sounds like an O(N^3) problem." Interviewer: "Can you think of any way to do it in smaller big-O?" Me: "Not off the top of my head, no." For some reason that company insisted on o…

>"Not off the top of my head, no." They were probably looking for the answer of, "Lets talk through it and figure out a better answer". Coders are often under a mistaken impression that interviewers care about your answer. They don't. They care about how you approach it, how you think through it, what you do when challenged, etc. So from their perspective, they asked you to try harder on a problem, and you just said,…

> Coders are often under a mistaken impression that interviewers care about your answer. They don't. They care about how you approach it, how you think through it, what you do when challenged, etc.

In many of the places that do claim this, even if you solve the problem "correctly" you still get more brownie points than someone who got a less efficient answer or didn't get an answer. Meaning that they /do/ actually care. I do get that some places are smarter with regards to this than others but it's depressingly common in my experience. "You didn't get the O(n) solution that has weird edge cases and was published as a paper in the 70s? Too bad, because some other person did, because they remember the solution from some programming interview book!"

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forget syntax bad. Forget algorithms bad. I regularly look things like that up. I am a builder and a problem solver, not a reference manual.

"I'm not a reference manual." I'm going try to remember that to use in an interview some time when I don't know something off the top of my head, and they get in my face for it.

You probably wouldn’t want to work anywhere where people get in your face for not knowing something off the top of your head. The three phrases I wish that I heard more frequently at work are “I don’t know”, “I’m not sure” and “Do you have any ideas?”

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

6 months? That's terrible. Most engineers can be productive in a month. The 3x engineers take half that.

Had few jobs in low level system codebases in the millions of locs. I've had 9 months probation periods.

Nine months is insulting unless you guarantee me a VERY generous severance if things don't work out.
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