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In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

theguardian.com

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Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#221

Post by gaius »

beojan wrote: post #158
gaius wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me it is an elitist view that when you provide a service to the unwashed masses, it must be of lower quality But it must be. An institution with AAA A-level students can teach more advanced material at a faster pace than one that admits EEEs. This is surely obvious, no? It doesn’t mean anyone is better or worse in a moral sense, it just means more or less academically able.

But that's easily solved by having institutions for multiple A* students, and other institutions for EEE students. Which is the way it actually is.

Well yes, but it’s not a reasonable system if non-Russell degrees cost as much but are actually irrelevant. Shouldn’t those students be funnelled towards qualifications and vocations for which there is real demand?

There was nothing wrong with Polys when they were Polys.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#222

Post by aninhumer »

collyw wrote: post #145
mayniac wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not going to because that's a really fucking stupid argument.

I don't think it is. I have seen it said before that if you ask a girl out once its fine. If she says no and you continue to do it then its harassment. Except that how a lot of relationships begin. Pretty sure that the story of how Barack Obama got Michelle. At one end of the spectrum its obvious. At the other end it's not.

Just because some people ended up in a relationship this way doesn't mean the behaviour should be encouraged.

Sure, some people won't mind being asked out repeatedly, or maybe even find it flattering, but some people will find it very uncomfortable, and forcing those people to deal with that just so some people get to enjoy a silly courtship ritual is not really fair.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#223

Post by [deleted] »

throw2016 wrote: post #191

Some significant issues in western democracy can be traced back to the 1980's and before the fall of communism. Untill then it was important at least for appearances to show western capitalism and democracy as the best and fairest political systems for all round prosperity. Reaganism, Thatcherism and neoliberlism of the Friedman kind unleashed a toxic ideology that legitimizes and surrenders all decision making and t…

[deleted]

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#224

Post by CM30 »

noodlesUK wrote: post #47

As a university student in the UK I find myself reminded of these problems on a very frequent basis. The purpose of universities seems to have shifted from providing academic research and learning to simply being another stage of school, with the sole objective of handing out degrees. One of the metrics that I feel indicates this most strongly is the radical change in hiring at universities in recent years. It's shoc…

> The purpose of universities seems to have shifted from providing academic research and learning to simply being another stage of school, with the sole objective of handing out degrees.

This isn't just true at university level either. Recently sixth form college level education basically became mandatory for everyone too, and I suspect the same thing that happened to universities happened on that level too.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#225

Post by sheepmullet »

sudosteph wrote: post #206
henryaj wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> he doesn't want to sacrifice individuality and creativity for the sake of maintaining a banal existence that doesn't deviate from the norm out of fear Exactly. Just apply that to the fear of running afoul of draconian speech codes designed to reduce the amount of "offence" people experience.

"Don't be a jerk" doesn't seem draconian to me. The people I see whining about their speech having consequences (ie, Milo) are usually aiming to offend. They aren't running into obscure codes, they're being jerks for fun and profit.

> "Don't be a jerk" doesn't seem draconian to me.

And who gets to decide what is acceptable?

My college had an atheist club that hung up a banner saying "Religion is for the feeble minded" - that's offensive to billions of people.

Can we shut them down and boot them off campus?

My college also had communist clubs with communist slogans - many of my extended family were killed by communists so that's obviously offensive.

Can we shut them down and boot them off campus?

> The people I see whining about their speech having consequences (ie, Milo) are usually aiming to offend.

By the time people like Milo come along hundreds of legitimate speakers have already been silenced - that's how people like Milo realize it's an easy and lucrative market to take advantage of.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#226

Post by sheepmullet »

aninhumer wrote: post #222
collyw wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think it is. I have seen it said before that if you ask a girl out once its fine. If she says no and you continue to do it then its harassment. Except that how a lot of relationships begin. Pretty sure that the story of how Barack Obama got Michelle. At one end of the spectrum its obvious. At the other end it's not.

Just because some people ended up in a relationship this way doesn't mean the behaviour should be encouraged. Sure, some people won't mind being asked out repeatedly, or maybe even find it flattering, but some people will find it very uncomfortable, and forcing those people to deal with that just so some people get to enjoy a silly courtship ritual is not really fair.

> but some people will find it very uncomfortable

And are they being reasonable or not?

I know people who find it very uncomfortable to leave their house.

I know people who find it very uncomfortable to talk to someone they don't know.

I personally find any kind of sales and advertising incredibly uncomfortable.

Almost everyone finds it very uncomfortable when they have their views challenged.

Just because something makes some people uncomfortable doesn't make it bad.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#227

Post by aninhumer »

sheepmullet wrote: post #226
aninhumer wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because some people ended up in a relationship this way doesn't mean the behaviour should be encouraged. Sure, some people won't mind being asked out repeatedly, or maybe even find it flattering, but some people will find it very uncomfortable, and forcing those people to deal with that just so some people get to enjoy a silly courtship ritual is not really fair.

> but some people will find it very uncomfortable And are they being reasonable or not? I know people who find it very uncomfortable to leave their house. I know people who find it very uncomfortable to talk to someone they don't know. I personally find any kind of sales and advertising incredibly uncomfortable. Almost everyone finds it very uncomfortable when they have their views challenged. Just because something…

What exactly do you think it mean for someone's experience of discomfort to be "unreasonable"? And why do you think that justifies taking actions that we know are likely to cause someone else discomfort?

I can't say I find your examples particularly justifying. I think we should leave agoraphobic introverts alone if that's what they want. I think sales and advertising are obnoxious and society would be better without them. And I think people should be free to explore different views at their own pace, as long as they're not hurting anyone. Or if they are hurting someone, then that discomfort caused by challenging their views is justified, but it's still a bad thing in itself.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#228

Post by romwell »

sammoth wrote: post #87
sergiosgc wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes no sense. It seems to me it is an elitist view that when you provide a service to the unwashed masses, it must be of lower quality. I believe it is false. Curricula don't have to be easier if you have a large student body, and graduation requirements don't have to be lower. Taking in more students does not inhibit service quality, up to the capacity of the school, which can be easily scaled by hiring more…

Is it possible to just 'hire more teachers' though? The teachers that I had in university didn't seem to be the type of people you could just hire more of.

Yes, it is. The fight for jobs in the academic market is fierce; there are far more people looking for academic jobs than there are positions.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#229

Post by neumann »

You argument is not in favor of the poor. Given the way taxation works, free healthcare and education provide opportunities for lower incomes that aren't available for private services. When education is free (popular phrasing for government paid), a poor person with no income can get a free education and usually financial support and actually get a degree. If healthcare is free, the burden of the individual is carried by the society. As for 'standard libertarian arguments', you might as well say 'myopic perspective'.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#230

Post by beojan »

gaius wrote: post #221
beojan wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But that's easily solved by having institutions for multiple A* students, and other institutions for EEE students. Which is the way it actually is.

Well yes, but it’s not a reasonable system if non-Russell degrees cost as much but are actually irrelevant. Shouldn’t those students be funnelled towards qualifications and vocations for which there is real demand? There was nothing wrong with Polys when they were Polys.

They don't, in practice, because what you repay is linked to what you earn.
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