How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream • Hacker News Board

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#271

Post by magduf » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 1:00 PM UTC

lelandbatey wrote: post #245

magduf wrote: post #223

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>The problem is that peak energy usage now occurs after sunset. So no matter how many solar panels you stack on your home, around 6-7 PM the coal, oil, and gas power plants all have to spin up to their max capacity. Where are you getting this assumption from? In hot climates like Arizona, peak energy usage during the summer months is in the afternoon, not the evening. When it's 115 degrees outside, that's when everyo…

The claim that energy usage peaks after sunset comes from the diagram[0] in the OP's link[1]. In the diagram, you can see that solar power peaked at around 3pm on the graphed day, then declined to near-zero by 6pm. Meanwhile, the total load rose steadily throughout the day, peaking at about 9pm before declining. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Duck_Curve_CA-ISO_2016-10... [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

I'd like to see what the curve looks like for southern Arizona and also southern Nevada. California (at least in the populated parts) isn't remotely as hot as either of those places.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#272

Post by ThomPete » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 1:11 PM UTC

DoctorOetker wrote: post #268

ThomPete wrote: post #267

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thats not the discussion. The discussion is if opposing views are allowed to exist or whether you get shamed for thinking and proposing something that is as politically valid (human flourishing).

Obviously opposing views are allowed to exist. I don't know how shaming can even be measured objectively. What makes you feel shamed? The fact that someone downvoted you? Thats merely the expression of someone's opposing views... (I did not downvote your comments btw) There is no "the" discussion. There is a discussion consisting of commenter beliefs, and then responses challenging beliefs. You classified some belief…

You should see the number of downvotes I got for my posts in this thread. You ask Michael Shellenger how much hate he is getting for proposing Nuclear is necessary in California or you ask Alex Epstein for that matter. You go see any climate catastrophe sceptics and you will see an army of people ready to shame them. If you don't see the shaming you aren't actually paying attention.

There is almost no middle ground.

Nuclear waste isn't the problem you make it out to be that's the point. It's the only waste in the US which is actually safely secured, solar on the other hand isn't and it's contains plenty of toxic materials.

Furhtermore new nuclear power plants can reuse already used uranium again making the waste problem even less.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#273

Post by gehsty » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 1:31 PM UTC

ThomPete wrote: post #243

gehsty wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed on the absurd downvotes! I think nuclear is quite bad, we've got to transport / process / store nuclear waste for thousands of years. We should probably do anything we can to avoid producing this stuff. I grew up near where a lot of the worlds nuclear waste is processed and while it does make for lots of good jobs, that last many many lifetimes, I just can't get onboard with new nuclear when it is cheaper to b…

said in all sincerity. I would urge you to spend a little more time looking into nuclear you would be quite surprised of how wrong your view of it is. New reactors can use used uranium which makes the problem even smaller. On top of that, the actual footprint needed to store it is absurdly small if we even had to do that. In other words Nuclear is the safest greenest form of energy we have (greener than wind or solar…

I guess we just see things differently, you think that we need nuclear power to meet demand, I think we will be able to meet that demand with renewables + interconnected grids.

I appreciate that nuclear waste is not what it once was, but I think it is still right not to pursue nuclear when renewables are cheaper, and an interconnected grid can provide the base supply requirement by shipping power long distances.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#274

Post by msisk6 » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 2:09 PM UTC

skookumchuck wrote: post #239

coryfklein wrote: post #133

Selling solar back to the grid has one major problem that, fortunately, doesn't plague windmill installations: The Duck Curve [1]. The problem is that peak energy usage now occurs after sunset . So no matter how many solar panels you stack on your home, around 6-7 PM the coal, oil, and gas power plants all have to spin up to their max capacity. Your solar panels are new less likely to _replace_ a coal power plant, al…

The solution is straightforward - lower consumer electricity rates when power is cheap, and raise them when it is expensive. Consumers will naturally shift the elastic part of their electric demand to when power is cheap. For example, charging the car when power is cheap.

Yep. Here in Texas we have an open energy market and in most areas you get to choose your energy provider and an array of plans.

One of my co-works with a Tesla got a plan where electricity is free at night. He cranks the AC during the night and charges the car and ends up paying around $40 a month. Not bad.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#275

Post by sfifs » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 2:28 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #156

saalweachter wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can add components with high, desirable thermal mass to your heating/cooling system to time-shift that as well. You heat and cool your thermal mass when energy is cheap and then use your thermal mass to heat and cool your house much more efficiently during expensive energy periods.

Indeed! In Florida, I use my 10k gallon pool to dump heat from the house into until its thermal capacity has been reached, at which point the heat exchanger switches back to using the condensor unit. Along with my solar panels, my only grid use is for charging an EV at night if it’s not home during the day.

Every time I think I grasp the expansiveness and wealth of the US, something comes along and whacks my concepts. In the Asian cities where I live, the well off live in condos where a 100 houses share a pool and the area occupied by a 10k gallon pool would be as big as a third of the house.

I'm not sure these solutions work for even the well off in most parts of the world, let alone common people.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#276

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 3:45 PM UTC

sfifs wrote: post #275

toomuchtodo wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Indeed! In Florida, I use my 10k gallon pool to dump heat from the house into until its thermal capacity has been reached, at which point the heat exchanger switches back to using the condensor unit. Along with my solar panels, my only grid use is for charging an EV at night if it’s not home during the day.

Every time I think I grasp the expansiveness and wealth of the US, something comes along and whacks my concepts. In the Asian cities where I live, the well off live in condos where a 100 houses share a pool and the area occupied by a 10k gallon pool would be as big as a third of the house. I'm not sure these solutions work for even the well off in most parts of the world, let alone common people.

[deleted]

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#277

Post by cjarrett » Tue, Apr 24, 2018, 4:07 PM UTC

macmac wrote: post #236

shawabawa3 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Windmill is a defacto synonym for wind turbines in most english speaking countries

Not in the industry.

I worked in the industry for three summers, and they were interchangeable there.

Additionally, they could be 'tur-bans' or 'tur-bines' as well.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#278

Post by ThomPete » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 1:09 AM UTC

gehsty wrote: post #273

ThomPete wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

said in all sincerity. I would urge you to spend a little more time looking into nuclear you would be quite surprised of how wrong your view of it is. New reactors can use used uranium which makes the problem even smaller. On top of that, the actual footprint needed to store it is absurdly small if we even had to do that. In other words Nuclear is the safest greenest form of energy we have (greener than wind or solar…

I guess we just see things differently, you think that we need nuclear power to meet demand, I think we will be able to meet that demand with renewables + interconnected grids. I appreciate that nuclear waste is not what it once was, but I think it is still right not to pursue nuclear when renewables are cheaper, and an interconnected grid can provide the base supply requirement by shipping power long distances.

Problem is that there is nothing even in potential future technology that allow solar and wind to cover our need. Furthermore they pollute way more.

So not sure exactly what it is you think we are seeing differently. The facts are the facts no?

So not sure why you are so adement about those inferior technologies.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#279

Post by skookumchuck » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 9:41 AM UTC

magduf wrote: post #269

skookumchuck wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you want to live below sea level and trust the dam? Not me.

Why not? Countless people worldwide live in places that would be flooded if a dam broke. We saw this last year in California. And how many more people live at sea level in coastal areas that are prone to flooding? Maybe you refuse to live in such areas, but there's probably several b illion people who do.

If the Gibraltar dam broke, you'd have nowhere to run to.

Re: How Windmills as Wide as Jumbo Jets Are Making Clean Energy Mainstream

#280

Post by jimktrains2 » Wed, Apr 25, 2018, 12:43 PM UTC

vidarh wrote: post #264

jimktrains2 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Having a reservoir as the potential to significantly increase the reduction in excess supply you can handle, that is true, but the lack of that option does not change the benefit of shutting off generating capacity. The point is to not turn off generation capacity that we don't control the start of, like wind. Why should we not generate if the wind is blowing at night?

What I commented on, and what you quoted above, was about hydro plants, not wind. With hydro plants, as long as the reservoir has capacity the reservoir acts like a battery, as hydro plants tend to be built with turbine capacity sufficient for a flow large enough to drain the reservoir. As such, unlike with wind, nothing is lost if you close the sluice gates or a while - the reservoir just builds up and you can gener…

This whole discussion has been around the use of pumped hydro plants to store the output of other sources during times of low demand.