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Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

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Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#21
post #6

Number 2: No One Believes Anyone Can Actually Code It's surprising to see the number of people who interview for lead technical roles that cannot code, or whose work is exceptionally sloppy. Incompetence is more commonplace than the author believes, even at the highest level.

This was the one that really stood out to me. MOOCs, bootcamps etc are wildly popular now and vary massively in quality. It's very easy for candidates to look good on paper but not actually know the technical side as well as they should. More importantly, software engineering is one of the few jobs where you can get a (somewhat) quantitative measure on prospective performance so it's natural to take advantage of that.

I'm not saying that All Coding Tests Are Good, but they do provide a modicum of certainty in a very uncertain environment.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#22
post #6

Number 2: No One Believes Anyone Can Actually Code It's surprising to see the number of people who interview for lead technical roles that cannot code, or whose work is exceptionally sloppy. Incompetence is more commonplace than the author believes, even at the highest level.

Not all technical roles require coding skill. Unless you meant “lead software engineering role” in which case yes, you are right.

Yes, that is what I meant.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#23
Number 1: I think this is due to specializing in Ruby on Rails which is falling out of favor? Or your city location? I know in my location the average job hunt is 2 weeks.

Number 2: As someone that interviews people alot, this is cuz MANY people who apply CANNOT code, no matter what their resume says. We have had people leave and never come back during our console app on site test (read in a text file and print out its contents with some minor formatting). This is resumes with 10 years plus experience in the language supposedly. And the computer has whatever IDE they prefer and full internet access!

Number 3: I agree that CS type questions are pointless unless you are doing stuff like that on the job. We have stopped using those.

Number 4: We now require an onsite 2 hour code project (designed to fit in that time frame)

Number 5: True

Number 6: We use headhunters to weed people out but that is about it. For one position the head hunter roughly run 15 people applying for each 1 possible person to pass to us for the next step. Again, most fail a mind boggling simple phone interview process for people who claim 10 plus years experience in coding. Not knowing what the static keyword means in C# when they say they are skilled in C# for instance.

Number 7: Don't have an opinion on this

Number 8: Again this seems to be your physical location. At ours there is roughly 3 open positions for each matching person.

Number 9: Our company does not discriminate on age and are desperate for qualified people with experience. Many times a candidate regardless of age is stuck in one tech (winforms, MVC, Ruby on Rails (:P)) and we more discrimate on someone who is not showing growth in their tech skillset. For example, are you learning the basics of a cloud stack such as AWS/Google/Azure?

At the end of the interview, I would recommend asking "are there any concerns or issues you would have with hiring me for this position?" and LISTEN to their feedback. I am sure there are some bad companies but for the most part it feels like you are not interviewing well for whatever reason. Maybe you are coming off as defensive or hostile when questioned? I would also reach back to the company and ask why they did not choose you. Most companies are way to busy to tell each person why they were passed over, but if you show an interest they will usually respond.

Anyway good post and good luck to you!

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#24
sounds like a naive candidate to me. surprising (but not shocking) for someone with so much experience.

if he’s 50 yo, assuming same career since graduation, his first mistake is applying for senior roles. senior is 5-7 years experience. he should be applying for staff roles at minimum and up to principal.

i guess you’re not supposed to slam posts here but this article is more of the same old same ole.

i would like to see an article from the hiring manager POV.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#25
post #8
post #2

> When did an entire industry of people get pre-judged as lying? That's the kind of thing that happens when people lie. Everybody who's ever hired engineers knows from experience that a simple Fizzbuzz test is still, unfortunately, a very usable candidate filter. A lot of candidates with years of real work experience simply cannot write code. How else can we find this out?

It's also the reason why so many systems, at so many companies, are complete, utter shit.

I agree but I don't think it's fair to put it all on the incompetence of devs/engineers... in many cases it's mismanagement and the real problem is devs/engineers don't know how to talk to management to get to them see why $badpractice is bad. So because the devs don't have MBA's, and the MBA's don't talk well to technicals there is a huge culture gap in the average fortune 1000 workplace. I've seen the inside of companies where the cost cutting was so excessive the infrastructure was near crumbling... just due to sheer mismanagement. You want to know how many stories I've heard about a sysadmin requesting horizontal and structured cabling done by professionals and been denied? How many stories about IT departments not even having an actual budget and only getting approve/deny requests? So half of the infrastructure around companies is just cobbled together by some underpayed one man miracle show who if he is super lucky gets a full time t1 assist.

At the end of the day, the buck should stop somewhere... and it does. With management.

In the meantime, I think it's time for sysadmins/engineers/devs to start getting MBA's and going for CIO/CTO positions and start to push a shift.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#27
From the article

"The general thing that I saw from everyone that I talked to is that no one actually believes that anyone can code. At every stage in the interview process, you’re going to need to prove that your resume isn’t a lie and that you can actually do what you say you can. I find this ludicrous because it is like interviewing an attorney and then saying to him “Please prove that you can cite a Supreme Court precedent”. When did an entire industry of people get pre-judged as lying? Don’t we exist in a country where the default assumption is innocence not guilt?"

This is, IMHO, due to the fact that for years new grads would apply to jobs, and the new job required: 7 years programming in X? YES, 4 years writing scripts in Y? ABSOLUTELY, etc, etc. These new grads all had the attitude of "I will learn that on the job, no one has 7 years in X". And now we have a world of companies that don't think anyone can code. Don't know where they got that idea.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#28
post #6

Number 2: No One Believes Anyone Can Actually Code It's surprising to see the number of people who interview for lead technical roles that cannot code, or whose work is exceptionally sloppy. Incompetence is more commonplace than the author believes, even at the highest level.

Seriously. I've sat on the hiring side. I've seen impressive resumes. I've had reasonable discussions with people. And then I give them a very, very trivial coding exercise (a take home, they're free to Google, do it on their own computer, in their own IDE, in their professed preferred language), in a time frame that while constrained is still plenty...and the result is -terrible-.

I can try and come up with reasons why that might be the case, why a simple OO modeling problem + a couple of trivial algorithmic problems (like, take an ascii string, return me a dict mapping characters to character counts) would trip someone up...but that isn't sufficient justification for me to want to continue to an onsite.

And that's the people who get past the verbal screen. Plenty drop out at that point. "I see you spent two years as a Senior DBA. Can you tell me what the acryonym ACID stands for?" "No, I'm not familiar with that" "Okay. Well, the 'C' stands for consistency. Can you tell me what one means when we talk about data being consistent in the database?" "It means when you write something it stays written (or some other made up twaddle)" "I see."

That said, I agree that coding tests that are completely unrelated to the job, and are geared toward college grads rather than long term developers (i.e., "Implement a (data structure)" or "Remember/discover an algorithm that was a PhD thesis 30 years ago to solve a contrived problem in a theoretically optimal way" rather than "Solve a real problem of a kind similar to what we'd expect you to do here") are dumb.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#29

Every time I see another iteration of this kind of article, it screams out to me that we need some kind of worker's cartel that can enforce an embargo on companies that don't meet some minimal standard. Part of the problem is that companies keep getting more applicants than they can handle, no matter how hostile their interview process becomes.

Every time I see another iteration of this kind of article, it screams out to me that we need some kind of worker's cartel that can enforce an embargo on companies that don't meet some minimal standard.

Like... a union? A combination of aggressive union busting, anti-union ideology of many in tech, and aggressive offshoring/H1B hiring acts to keep that in check. The moment you try to raise the issue you’re either fired, or some “genius” who reads Ayn Rand like the Bible tells you to pull yourself up by your bootstraps.

Re: Things I Learned from a Job Hunt for a Senior Engineering Role

#30
I've been involved in hiring senior engineers for a while now, and here's a few counterpoints:

1) Ruby is hard to get a job in, so you are off to a rough start.

2) A lot of people with lots of experience actually can't code for crap. Do you know how many python developers I see that don't know the difference between a tuple and list? Like, how could you be a real dev if you never even wondered why sometimes you use [] and sometimes you use ()?

3) These tests and interviews aren't intended for you to get some certain score. Usually we make them way hard to find out what you do to handle that.

4) That said, you should know how to write code that isn't super slow and with a data model that isn't insane. You should also know how to articulate that, since as a Senior dev, you WILL be mentoring junior devs, and communication is not optional.

5) Every company's process is different because every company is different. Heck, my process is often different per applicant.

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