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The Looming Battle Over AI Chips

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Re: The Looming Battle Over AI Chips

#81
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>At Google/FB scale tweaks to improve cost may make sense but it doesnt seem like architecturally speaking there is some major design decision being left on the table anymore (I'd love to hear a specific counterpoint though!). I'd expect if I knew any, they'd be under NDA. I'll just point out that a GPU, even one with specific "ML cores" as NVIDIA calls them, is going to have a bunch of silicon that is being used ine…

There are many researchers not bound by NDAs making novel chip architectures, some of which are on HN. Secondly, GPUs don't really have very much hardware specialized for graphics anymore. If we called it a TPU I'm not sure you'd be making the same point :P At a company like MS/FB/Google where you don't need to leverage selling the same chip for gaming/vr/ML/mining for economy of scale, like you said you can reduce y…

> Secondly, GPUs don't really have very much hardware specialized for graphics anymore. If we called it a TPU I'm not sure you'd be making the same point :P

I think this is semantics. Modern GPUs do have a lot of hardware that isn't specialized for machine learning. My limited knowledge says that very recent NVIDIA GPUs have some things that vaguely resemble TPU cores ("Tensor cores"), but they also have a lot of silicon for classic CUDA cores. Which I was calling "graphics" hardware, but might better be described as "silicon that isn't optimized for the necessary memory bandwidth for DL". So its still used non-optimally.

To be clear, you can still use the CUDA cores for DL. We did that just fine for a long time, they're just decidedly less efficiently than Tensor cores.

Re: The Looming Battle Over AI Chips

#82
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This somewhat blows my mind. Yes, it is impressive. However, the work that Nuance and similar companies used to do are still competitive, just not getting near the money and exposure. I remember over a decade ago, they even had mood analysis they could apply to listening to people. Far from new. Is it truly more effective or efficient nowadays? Or just getting marketed by companies you've heard of?

"Nuance and similar companies used to do are still competitive" Surprised. Curious if you can compare the inference per joules of Google 1st gen TPUs compared? Google shared a paper and the numbers are pretty impressive and was not aware of anyone else close to the gen 1 TPUs? Here is the paper that you can use for the TPU side. Love so see someone else in the ball park? We really do not want just one company but com…

This seems to be comparing them on their own terms. In more curious on features. Dragon naturally speaking and some other products have been really impressive for years now. Far beyond what my phone is capable of.

Not to say that the likes of the echo and others aren't impressive. Just that the speech recognition is the least of those products. Fully transcribed voice mail was available for years with Google voice (even before it was Google voice), yet that seems to happen less now than it did when I first for the product.

So what changed? And why?

Re: The Looming Battle Over AI Chips

#83
post #70
post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This somewhat blows my mind. Yes, it is impressive. However, the work that Nuance and similar companies used to do are still competitive, just not getting near the money and exposure. I remember over a decade ago, they even had mood analysis they could apply to listening to people. Far from new. Is it truly more effective or efficient nowadays? Or just getting marketed by companies you've heard of?

It is truly better. Objective metrics (such as word error rate) don't lie. You can argue whether it makes sense to use, say, 100x compute to get 2x less error, but that's a different argument; I don't think anyone is really disputing improved quality.

Speech synthesis not recognition.

Re: The Looming Battle Over AI Chips

#84
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is truly better. Objective metrics (such as word error rate) don't lie. You can argue whether it makes sense to use, say, 100x compute to get 2x less error, but that's a different argument; I don't think anyone is really disputing improved quality.

Speech synthesis not recognition.

Yeah, I noticed we were skirting between those topics. I think mostly the points still stand. On both sides. :)

Re: The Looming Battle Over AI Chips

#85
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Nuance and similar companies used to do are still competitive" Surprised. Curious if you can compare the inference per joules of Google 1st gen TPUs compared? Google shared a paper and the numbers are pretty impressive and was not aware of anyone else close to the gen 1 TPUs? Here is the paper that you can use for the TPU side. Love so see someone else in the ball park? We really do not want just one company but com…

This seems to be comparing them on their own terms. In more curious on features. Dragon naturally speaking and some other products have been really impressive for years now. Far beyond what my phone is capable of. Not to say that the likes of the echo and others aren't impressive. Just that the speech recognition is the least of those products. Fully transcribed voice mail was available for years with Google voice (e…

What? You are comparing processing a NN. How is that comparing on "own terms"?

Re: The Looming Battle Over AI Chips

#86
post #7

Pretty soft article. General purpose processors no longer have the performance or energy efficiency that’s possible at scale. Further, if you have a choice to control your own destiny, why wouldn’t you choose to?

Great post. It is like mining going to ASICs. We have hit limits and you now have to do your own silicon.

A perfect example is the Google new speech synthesis. Doing 16k samples a second through a NN is not going to be possible without your own silicon.

https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2018/03/introducing-Clo...

Listen to the samples. Then think the joules required to do it this way versus the old way and trying to create a price competitive product with the improved results.

Re: The Looming Battle Over AI Chips

#87
post #32

There is certainly a lot of hype around AI chips, but I'm very skeptical of the reward. There are several technical concerns I have with any "AI" chip that ultimately leave you with something more general purpose (and not really an "AI" chip, but good at low precision matmul): * For inference, how do you efficiently move your data to the chip? In general most of the time is spent in matmul, and there are lots of exci…

Most top tier tech all.have their working solutions for these. It's a matter of turning into product and moving the industry mindset.

There is nothing for the buyer to see. They are buying a service or capability and what silicon that runs on is here or there to them.

A simple example is the Google New Speech synthesis service. It is done using NN on their TPUs but nobody needs to know any of that.

https://cloudplatform.googleblog.com/2018/03/introducing-Clo...

What the buyer knows is the cost and the quality of the service.

Now Google had to do their own silicon to offer this as otherwise the cost would have been astronomical. The compute to do 16k samples a second with a NN are astronomical.

If I could not see it myself I would say what Google did was not possible.

Just hope they share the details in a paper. If we can get to 16k cycles through a NN at a reasonable cost that opens up a lot of interesting applications.

Re: The Looming Battle Over AI Chips

#88
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This seems to be comparing them on their own terms. In more curious on features. Dragon naturally speaking and some other products have been really impressive for years now. Far beyond what my phone is capable of. Not to say that the likes of the echo and others aren't impressive. Just that the speech recognition is the least of those products. Fully transcribed voice mail was available for years with Google voice (e…

What? You are comparing processing a NN. How is that comparing on "own terms"?

Did the old methods use neutral networks? I wouldn't be surprised if they did, but I would be surprised if they were as deep of networks as what people use today.

That is, I am interested in comparing them on speed of transcription, speech synthesises, error rates, etc. Not on speed of network execution.

Re: The Looming Battle Over AI Chips

#89
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What? You are comparing processing a NN. How is that comparing on "own terms"?

Did the old methods use neutral networks? I wouldn't be surprised if they did, but I would be surprised if they were as deep of networks as what people use today. That is, I am interested in comparing them on speed of transcription, speech synthesises, error rates, etc. Not on speed of network execution.

No the old method did NOT use NN. I hope Google writes a paper and shares more details.

It is hard to believe they are able to do 16k samples a second through a NN even with the TPUs.

So be curious to see if reduced and how much?

If they really do have the ability to do 16k a second at scale that opens the door for all kinds of other applications.

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