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In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

theguardian.com

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Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#111

Post by [deleted] »

gaius wrote: post #92
sergiosgc wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes no sense. It seems to me it is an elitist view that when you provide a service to the unwashed masses, it must be of lower quality. I believe it is false. Curricula don't have to be easier if you have a large student body, and graduation requirements don't have to be lower. Taking in more students does not inhibit service quality, up to the capacity of the school, which can be easily scaled by hiring more…

It seems to me it is an elitist view that when you provide a service to the unwashed masses, it must be of lower quality But it must be. An institution with AAA A-level students can teach more advanced material at a faster pace than one that admits EEEs. This is surely obvious, no? It doesn’t mean anyone is better or worse in a moral sense, it just means more or less academically able.

[deleted]

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#112

Post by EnderMB »

Despite being a British citizen, I don't understand the university model all that well, but one argument I see being banded about over the creeping levels of control over UK universities is why the more elite-level universities haven't opted to go private.

Sure, there was a legitimate argument a while ago with no/low tuition fees. The government was footing the bill. Now that tuition fees have risen, and seem to want to continue to rise, what benefit is there for the likes of Oxford, Cambridge, UCL, and co to remain public?

Someone I used to work with attended the University of Buckingham, one of the few universities in the UK that is private, and he said that while it was no Oxbridge, the flexibility of graduating in two years made it completely worth it. Ironically, a lot of pressure is put on the ex-polytechnics and middling universities in the UK to justify their high costs, low quality of content, and average employment figures, with the government often pointing towards the need for flexibility (i.e. two year degrees to save money).

If the government want to get their claws in, I'm surprised that those with the freedom to go private haven't decided to, or at least as a way to one-up their competitors.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#113

Post by beaconstudios »

pjc50 wrote: post #84
beaconstudios wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what is a preferable way to handle what you call "violent radicalism"? If the rule is only targeted at those who are drawn into beliefs that would see those individuals commit violent acts, what makes reporting them bigoted compared to reporting other violent groups?

> drawn into beliefs that would see those individuals commit violent acts That potentially covers any and all of homophobia, sexism, support for Rangers FC, signing up for the Army, animal rights, etc. The actual guidance says > vocal or active opposition to fundamental British values, including democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty and mutual respect and tolerance of different faiths and beliefs and calls o…

> That potentially covers any and all of homophobia, sexism, support for Rangers FC, signing up for the Army, animal rights, etc.

individuals wanting to commit violent acts can arguably belong to any set of beliefs, it's the extent of their beliefs and the specific belief that violence is needed to implement their vision that is the problem being discussed (imo).

I think Islamic fundamentalism and white supremacism are specifically called out because they are the most visible current threats. In case you were being serious, the BBC broadcast clearly falls under journalistic protection. An individual recreating the speech would likely be tried for hate speech.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#114

Post by wastedhours »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #72
Shivetya wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a bit confused by the last statement. It can take a lot of man power to support the academics at any university. Now this is not to say that there isn't a lot of staff padding going on. From supporting the physical site of the university which can be across multiple campuses to managing the life and well being of the students. Then top it off with administrative people and their support staffs the numbers can ad…

Not parent but, your statement doesn't explain why the ratio of academics to administrators should have fallen, do academics now need more administrators than they did. Are the newly employed non-academics really serving the research aims, or are they meeting the schooling requirements?

Part of it is that, yes, the non-academic staff help with the mountain of non-academic work lecturers would otherwise have.

I used to work in a support role at a university, and although many of the roles will inevitably be automated away, you'd be amazed at how much administration a student on a course requires (from room bookings for lectures, enrolment information, pastoral support, cleaning, cooking, supporting with IT systems, reviewing coursework and exams, QA-ing courses, assisting with research proposals, lining up interviews for PhD candidates...).

It's not something that scales well, the more students you have, the more of these things you need to manage, and the less it makes sense for academic staff to do it (on top of their other publish or perish commitments).

When you have a building that can hold 250 students, and 5 courses with 75 students each, each needing a lecture booking at around about the same time, but not the same time as some will overlap modules, so they can do practicals in the afternoon, whilst potentially needing to book in placement meetings throughout the day with the placements officer, and having the part-time staff in the academic office available for coursework hand-ins... this is where it gets messy. This will all be solved by technology in the future, but the "industry" is growing faster than the infrastructure allows. When you need to solve the problem now, and you're not a digitally-minded organisation, you throw bodies at it.

That being said, I'm not in agreement that 50% of the school-leaving population should be forced into a traditional university setting just because we as a society only value that route as being rigorous enough.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#115

Post by Malarkey73 »

ben_w wrote: post #109
sergiosgc wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes no sense. It seems to me it is an elitist view that when you provide a service to the unwashed masses, it must be of lower quality. I believe it is false. Curricula don't have to be easier if you have a large student body, and graduation requirements don't have to be lower. Taking in more students does not inhibit service quality, up to the capacity of the school, which can be easily scaled by hiring more…

> Curricula don't have to be easier if you have a large student body, and graduation requirements don't have to be lower. Only if everyone became a lot more skilled than their grades imply. Academic achievement is not be a perfect measure, but if you go from the top 3.4% of the population to the top 50%, the only possible situations are: 1) everyone is doing a lot better at school now 2) graduation rate goes down 3)…

That presumes

That the top 3.4% really were just the smartest - not the also the wealthiest and best connected. There is probably both some dilution of talent and also more competition from all levels of society.

And as to point 1. In the UK at least there is no doubt many many more are doing a lot better at school nowadays. Schools have evened up and pupils work far harder as most jobs require qualifications.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#116

Post by oldcynic »

andyjohnson0 wrote: post #86
sergiosgc wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes no sense. It seems to me it is an elitist view that when you provide a service to the unwashed masses, it must be of lower quality. I believe it is false. Curricula don't have to be easier if you have a large student body, and graduation requirements don't have to be lower. Taking in more students does not inhibit service quality, up to the capacity of the school, which can be easily scaled by hiring more…

> Academic staff has a harder time reaching tenure. Tenure in the US sense doesn't exist in the UK academic system. Lecturers/researchers with permanent contracts have the same employment rights as those in the private sector.

Yes, but, the whole of the UK permanent workforce gets tenure in the US sense after, I think, the first year of employment. As do most EU countries. Long may it remain so.

The Tories abolished tenure in the UK sense which roughly removed the right not to be made redundant but didn't affect the standard employment right not to be fired "just because".

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#117

Post by gaius »

ben_w wrote: post #109
sergiosgc wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That makes no sense. It seems to me it is an elitist view that when you provide a service to the unwashed masses, it must be of lower quality. I believe it is false. Curricula don't have to be easier if you have a large student body, and graduation requirements don't have to be lower. Taking in more students does not inhibit service quality, up to the capacity of the school, which can be easily scaled by hiring more…

> Curricula don't have to be easier if you have a large student body, and graduation requirements don't have to be lower. Only if everyone became a lot more skilled than their grades imply. Academic achievement is not be a perfect measure, but if you go from the top 3.4% of the population to the top 50%, the only possible situations are: 1) everyone is doing a lot better at school now 2) graduation rate goes down 3)…

It is not even the “top” 50%, because what of those who are perfectly capable but just don’t want to go to university? It is just 50% of the general population.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#118

Post by wastedhours »

sgt101 wrote: post #23
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help feeling we would be better off if responsibility for grading was taken away from universities as it is for A levels and GCSEs. There are some problems with that but I suspect they would be outweighed by the benefits.

Tough to do this within the constraints of academic freedom; if an institution wants to offer a new course and they need to get certification by an authority and find externals to mark it... well could stall things by years?

You already see this with courses around nursing and healthcare which need to be QA'd by external bodies like the local commissioning authorities. It does delay it, but not by as much as some of the internal processes that need to happen.

There might be more enterprising universities that launch courses quickly (and would probably still reserve the right to do it with things like masters courses), but most undergrad courses take years to develop and deploy anyway, so an external body reviewing the content and assessment criteria wouldn't hold things up much in comparison.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#119

Post by arethuza »

ionised wrote: post #44
remedan wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? I live in the west (continental Europe) and you can attend a good university for free here. The state pays your tuition.

Not in the UK anymore unfortunately.

Apart from Scotland!

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#120

Post by arethuza »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #22
glogla wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all of West has it this way. US and UK yes, but rest of EU mostly has free college in same or higher quality.

Scotland is nowhere near as bad as the rest of the UK although you have to have put up with their dreary weather for three years before attending.

Nitpick: Scots undergraduate degrees are typically 4 years rather than 3 as in the rest of the UK.
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