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In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

theguardian.com

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Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#91

Post by oldcynic »

pjc50 wrote: post #73
oldcynic wrote: post #71

It's quite appalling how UK universities seem to have changed since tuition fees. Most saddening is the effective destruction of the Open University as they now charge the same fees as everyone else. Few can afford to take an OU course for interest, or mid life career change any more. The youngest is looking very unlikely to attend university at all thanks to feedback from those already in the system. I rather get th…

The OU was actually one of the great British success stories, a "MOOC" before the Internet. It's a tragedy if that's coming to an end.

It's not quite as bad as attending, but cost of a degree is about £18k or so - at £3k/year if you do the typical spread over 6 years. The cost has been going up markedly ever since £3k fees first came in.

They still offer bursaries and grants for those on low income, but seem to have been trimmed to be only partial help, with the rest on a student loan. I'm fairly sure you used to be able to apply for 100% help.

So it seems far less appealing for those on low or middle income, and all their traditional successes like those who never did a degree at 18 etc.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#92

Post by gaius »

sergiosgc wrote: post #77
gaius wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of universities seems to have shifted from providing academic research and learning to simply being another stage of school There’s no “seems” about it, 50% of school leavers going to university was an explicit policy goal. There’s no way to reconcile an institution of higher learning with one that has to accept anyone that applies

That makes no sense. It seems to me it is an elitist view that when you provide a service to the unwashed masses, it must be of lower quality. I believe it is false. Curricula don't have to be easier if you have a large student body, and graduation requirements don't have to be lower. Taking in more students does not inhibit service quality, up to the capacity of the school, which can be easily scaled by hiring more…

It seems to me it is an elitist view that when you provide a service to the unwashed masses, it must be of lower quality

But it must be. An institution with AAA A-level students can teach more advanced material at a faster pace than one that admits EEEs. This is surely obvious, no?

It doesn’t mean anyone is better or worse in a moral sense, it just means more or less academically able.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#93

Post by icc97 »

This compounds some major long-term problems for education in the UK.

1. Their school systems are the most elitist/unequal in Europe [0] (from this TED talk [1]). There are many things I love about the UK but I can never go back as the school I send my child to now for free would cost £4000-6000 per year of post-tax income in the UK.

2. Because of underpaying teachers (In comparison to Belgium the mid-level art teacher I know gets paid €100/hr) and burying teachers in red-tape there is a significant shortage of teachers. This has led to the ridiculous lottery system they now have for picking schools.

3. The Brexit is going to hit the number of European students hard. Outside of Oxford and Cambridge, most of the top 10 UK Universities are all in London with a huge contingent of European students.

So Universities are going to lose their European influx and the incoming generation of students are going to be poorer.

[0]: https://imgur.com/a/qqKDgMd

[1]: https://www.ted.com/talks/andreas_schleicher_use_data_to_bui...

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#94

Post by vertex-four »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #75
thinkingemote wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've anecdotes from two university lecturers on different courses. They both want some form of external moderation. its what happens for Postgraduate degrees after all. What they report is horrifying: * Essay writing skills are lacking, "its at GCSE level" * Students contesting any form of criticism - they go via the official channels to argue why they should get a good grade. All schools are tied up in multiple trib…

>People literally copying from Wikipedia or copy and pasting from papers to make their own work. // My lad is just in UK high-school but I'm surprised at how homework is set with no provision of resources and no mention of plagiarism or need to cite sources. The kids are basically expected to find their own sources, which is ridiculous - making them trust whatever Google gives them. Once they've been inculcated into…

In FE college, we had an occasional class (as part of something else, can't remember what) that explained how to use the Internet to research properly, determine trustworthiness, and cite sources, and also how to use the library at a basic level. I'd assume that sixth-form colleges in England and their equivalent elsewhere do the same - but perhaps it's too late by then?

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#95

Post by peoplewindow »

pjc50 wrote: post #29

This should probably be seen in the context of the ongoing industrial action in response to a sneaky attempt to convert pensions from defined-benefit to defined-contribution, thereby halving their value. This was based on an extremely questionable financial scenario ("what if all UK universities went bankrupt?")

Er is it a questionable scenario? UK universities all have very similar businesses, customer bases, staff unionisation levels and risk profiles. It's quite imaginable that if there was a sudden drop in the number of students attending university they might all get in dire straits simultaneously.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#96

Post by henryaj »

mayniac wrote: post #4
vixen99 wrote: post #2

And is the UK government behind the erosion of free speech identified at a large number of institutions who have banned and actively censored ideas on campus? Shall we assume they are helpless in the face of demands from Whitehall? http://www.spiked-online.com/free-speech-university-rankings

I have a few issues with that link. Namely that a traffic light system is a huge, huge , HUGE oversimplification of complex issues. While the analysis seems fairly transparent, I don't think many people will actually look into it past the traffic light. I checked out the uni I went to: apparently the students union got an amber light because of "no tolerance to sexual harassment". How exactly does that violate free s…

> ‘Users must ensure that the content and tone of their email messages cannot be considered offensive.’

This doesn't seem reasonable at all. "Considered offensive" - those are just weasel words. How can I be expected to have a perfect model of other people's minds and the things they would be upset by?

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#97

Post by DanBC »

pjc50 wrote: post #84
beaconstudios wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what is a preferable way to handle what you call "violent radicalism"? If the rule is only targeted at those who are drawn into beliefs that would see those individuals commit violent acts, what makes reporting them bigoted compared to reporting other violent groups?

> drawn into beliefs that would see those individuals commit violent acts That potentially covers any and all of homophobia, sexism, support for Rangers FC, signing up for the Army, animal rights, etc. The actual guidance says > vocal or active opposition to fundamental British values, including democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty and mutual respect and tolerance of different faiths and beliefs and calls o…

Page 15: animal rights extremism is covered.

That feels reasonable so long as it's focussed on extremists: we had a spate of "fire bombing" incendiary attacks on department stores in the 1980s; and one group dug up a human corpse.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#98

Post by peoplewindow »

thinkingemote wrote: post #66
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help feeling we would be better off if responsibility for grading was taken away from universities as it is for A levels and GCSEs. There are some problems with that but I suspect they would be outweighed by the benefits.

I've anecdotes from two university lecturers on different courses. They both want some form of external moderation. its what happens for Postgraduate degrees after all. What they report is horrifying: * Essay writing skills are lacking, "its at GCSE level" * Students contesting any form of criticism - they go via the official channels to argue why they should get a good grade. All schools are tied up in multiple trib…

That makes it sound like it's all the students fault.

I studied CS at a top tier UK university (not Oxbridge but a tier below). The course was a mess. The professors were useless, often didn't understand their own subjects, marking was random and arbitrary, most of them quite obviously saw teaching as a chore to be disposed of as quickly as possible and many failed hard at even basic principles of teaching, like "if you set coursework, students should all have the same amount of time to complete it in".

There was no effective way for students to complain or get anything fixed. The department ran a student/professor relationships council or something which was a joke, the students on it had volunteered mostly to suck up to the staff and didn't have any idea how bad the teaching was or how hard they were getting stiffed.

If universities were _actually_ real businesses I'd have been furious and demanded my money back, but they aren't so what can you do? I just tell people not to go to university at all these days.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#99

Post by henryaj »

sudosteph wrote: post #54
SuoDuanDao wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That particular xkcd gets linked a lot in this debate. I really wonder what happened between when the author drew that comic and when he drew this one: https://www.xkcd.com/137/

I don't see any incompatibility there? Seems like in 137 he's saying that he doesn't want to sacrifice individuality and creativity for the sake of maintaining a banal existence that doesn't deviate from the norm out of fear. He's accepting the risks that come with making his opinions public, and challenging assumptions that he should just shut up, in part because he has confidence in the validity of his beliefs and…

> he doesn't want to sacrifice individuality and creativity for the sake of maintaining a banal existence that doesn't deviate from the norm out of fear

Exactly. Just apply that to the fear of running afoul of draconian speech codes designed to reduce the amount of "offence" people experience.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#100

Post by jimmy1 »

TheForumTroll wrote: post #67
jimmy1 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With risk of being deemed survivorship bias, I went to a community college for the first 2 years in the US at a whopping $698 a semester, got my associates in science which transferred to a prominent a state college and counted for my Gen Ed requirements in my Computer Science degree so I was able to jump straight into CS courses. With tuition assistance (everyone qualifies at a certain level, unless you are uber ric…

No matter how cheap you got your degree (which doens't seem to include any university?), who do you think gets the most knowledge out of it: A: that works 25 hours+ while studying at a school chosen because of its price or B: that study at a school that fits what is best for B and gets money from the school? Now you might believe the system A uses is fine, but which country do you think will be ahead in 10 or even 50…

There are so many variables here I couldn't even begin to answer but I will take a stab and say A because that student is most likely fiscally responsible and proven they can juggle multiple responsibilities and still make progress towards a goal. These typically tend to be very productive members of society. In B's case, this also may be true, but I am less prone to have the same expectations since your university schooling offers you entirely what you decide to get out of it: meaning you can slack off and only study for the test, and forget it as soon as you step outside in the real world, or you can remember it all and excel. Now I am not saying with A you can't also slack off in school and not get anything, but on average I would say a working student values their education more than a non-working student since they have a larger motivator and a early reality check of what life is really like.
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