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In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

theguardian.com

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Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#81

Post by maze-le »

thinkingemote wrote: post #66
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't help feeling we would be better off if responsibility for grading was taken away from universities as it is for A levels and GCSEs. There are some problems with that but I suspect they would be outweighed by the benefits.

I've anecdotes from two university lecturers on different courses. They both want some form of external moderation. its what happens for Postgraduate degrees after all. What they report is horrifying: * Essay writing skills are lacking, "its at GCSE level" * Students contesting any form of criticism - they go via the official channels to argue why they should get a good grade. All schools are tied up in multiple trib…

2 of my friends work in HR. They tell me, that they see a university degree not as a valuable certification criterion on its own. I mean, the tech industry has always been a bit special in this regard. There are lots of excellent autodidact programmers, that never saw a university and there are a number of people that have specialized in getting good grades, but could not implement 10 lines on their own. Most recruiters are aware of that fact, thats why we have to do stupid whiteboard interviews for senior developer jobs. I suspect, that with the further erosion of principles and standards of universities, this mindset will creep into other domains as well.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#82

Post by Wildgoose »

adam-a wrote: post #37
tonyedgecombe wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scotland is nowhere near as bad as the rest of the UK although you have to have put up with their dreary weather for three years before attending.

EU residents can also study in Scotland for free. It is only England, Wales and NI who have to pay the full fees.

No, it is only the English that have to pay the full fees, students from Wales and NI pay a lower rate.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#83

Post by DanBC »

beaconstudios wrote: post #39
neel_k wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the UK government is behind the erosion of free speech on campus. The Counter Terrorism and Security Act of 2015 imposes a statutory duty on universities to have a "due regard to the need to prevent individuals from being drawn into terrorism". This means that institutions now have a statutory duty to participate in the government's Prevent strategy. This means UK universities have a legal obligation to narc on…

what is a preferable way to handle what you call "violent radicalism"? If the rule is only targeted at those who are drawn into beliefs that would see those individuals commit violent acts, what makes reporting them bigoted compared to reporting other violent groups?

Here's some information about CHANNEL / PREVENT: http://www.teescpp.org.uk/prevent-channel-referral-process

People who are referred are assessed, and most appropriate help should be provided. For some people this will be mental health services. For others it might be befriending services, or access to non-radicalising social groups.

People have mentioned external speakers. Here's the guidance for Higher Education in England and Wales.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

---begin 6. We would expect RHEBs to be delivering in the following areas.

External Speakers and Events

7. In order to comply with the duty all RHEBs should have policies and procedures in place for the management of events on campus and use of all RHEB premises. The policies should apply to all staff, students and visitors and clearly set out what is required for any event to proceed.

8. The RHEB clearly needs to balance its legal duties in terms of both ensuring freedom of speech and academic freedom, and also protecting student and staff welfare. Although it predates this legislation, Universities UK produced guidance in 2013 to support institutions to make decisions about hosting events and have the proper safeguards in place: http://www.universitiesuk.ac.uk/highereducation/Pages/Extern...

---end

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#84

Post by pjc50 »

beaconstudios wrote: post #39
neel_k wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the UK government is behind the erosion of free speech on campus. The Counter Terrorism and Security Act of 2015 imposes a statutory duty on universities to have a "due regard to the need to prevent individuals from being drawn into terrorism". This means that institutions now have a statutory duty to participate in the government's Prevent strategy. This means UK universities have a legal obligation to narc on…

what is a preferable way to handle what you call "violent radicalism"? If the rule is only targeted at those who are drawn into beliefs that would see those individuals commit violent acts, what makes reporting them bigoted compared to reporting other violent groups?

> drawn into beliefs that would see those individuals commit violent acts

That potentially covers any and all of homophobia, sexism, support for Rangers FC, signing up for the Army, animal rights, etc.

The actual guidance says

> vocal or active opposition to fundamental British values, including democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty and mutual respect and tolerance of different faiths and beliefs

and calls out Islamic fundamentalism and white supremacism. That raises the question, should the BBC's recent broadcast of the "Rivers of Blood" speech have been referred to Prevent for white supremacism?

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#85

Post by DanBC »

neel_k wrote: post #6
vixen99 wrote: post #2

And is the UK government behind the erosion of free speech identified at a large number of institutions who have banned and actively censored ideas on campus? Shall we assume they are helpless in the face of demands from Whitehall? http://www.spiked-online.com/free-speech-university-rankings

Yes, the UK government is behind the erosion of free speech on campus. The Counter Terrorism and Security Act of 2015 imposes a statutory duty on universities to have a "due regard to the need to prevent individuals from being drawn into terrorism". This means that institutions now have a statutory duty to participate in the government's Prevent strategy. This means UK universities have a legal obligation to narc on…

> who are too Muslim.

Do you realise that you're saying devout Muslims are terrorists? That may not be what you intended. Obviously prevent is not about people who are "too muslim", but about people who are drawn to violence for political or religious means.

This includes islamic extremists, but also includes some animal rights activists or far right extremists.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#86

Post by andyjohnson0 »

sergiosgc wrote: post #77
gaius wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of universities seems to have shifted from providing academic research and learning to simply being another stage of school There’s no “seems” about it, 50% of school leavers going to university was an explicit policy goal. There’s no way to reconcile an institution of higher learning with one that has to accept anyone that applies

That makes no sense. It seems to me it is an elitist view that when you provide a service to the unwashed masses, it must be of lower quality. I believe it is false. Curricula don't have to be easier if you have a large student body, and graduation requirements don't have to be lower. Taking in more students does not inhibit service quality, up to the capacity of the school, which can be easily scaled by hiring more…

> Academic staff has a harder time reaching tenure.

Tenure in the US sense doesn't exist in the UK academic system. Lecturers/researchers with permanent contracts have the same employment rights as those in the private sector.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#87

Post by sammoth »

sergiosgc wrote: post #77
gaius wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of universities seems to have shifted from providing academic research and learning to simply being another stage of school There’s no “seems” about it, 50% of school leavers going to university was an explicit policy goal. There’s no way to reconcile an institution of higher learning with one that has to accept anyone that applies

That makes no sense. It seems to me it is an elitist view that when you provide a service to the unwashed masses, it must be of lower quality. I believe it is false. Curricula don't have to be easier if you have a large student body, and graduation requirements don't have to be lower. Taking in more students does not inhibit service quality, up to the capacity of the school, which can be easily scaled by hiring more…

Is it possible to just 'hire more teachers' though? The teachers that I had in university didn't seem to be the type of people you could just hire more of.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#88

Post by DanBC »

Hasknewbie wrote: post #10

I agree with the article but I can only note, once more, that it is from The Guardian, who did run multiple articles in support of no-platforming in universities. But look who comes crying about freedom of inquiry now, once said "erosion of integrity" is done by right-wing bureaucrats. But the no-platforming happens mostly in the US, while government interferences is happening in the UK, so they will probably get awa…

Guardian have run lots of articles saying that no-platforming is bad, but also telling people that no-platforming isn't really that common.

Many of the so-called no-platforming events either didn't happen, or didn't happen in the way they were reported.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#89

Post by imron »

sergiosgc wrote: post #77
gaius wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The purpose of universities seems to have shifted from providing academic research and learning to simply being another stage of school There’s no “seems” about it, 50% of school leavers going to university was an explicit policy goal. There’s no way to reconcile an institution of higher learning with one that has to accept anyone that applies

That makes no sense. It seems to me it is an elitist view that when you provide a service to the unwashed masses, it must be of lower quality. I believe it is false. Curricula don't have to be easier if you have a large student body, and graduation requirements don't have to be lower. Taking in more students does not inhibit service quality, up to the capacity of the school, which can be easily scaled by hiring more…

> which can be easily scaled by hiring more teachers and more teaching space

Neither of which scale easily.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#90

Post by BenElgar »

golergka wrote: post #53
sgt101 wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tough to do this within the constraints of academic freedom; if an institution wants to offer a new course and they need to get certification by an authority and find externals to mark it... well could stall things by years?

Offer a course without a certification. Then, those students who are only in uni for the grades will not take it, but students who actually value knowledge will opt in for the course.

Most people value both though; when I was in university I loved what I did and wanted to continue doing it somewhere excellent afterwards. For that I need to be armed both with the knowledge and the qualifications necessary.
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