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In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

theguardian.com

61–70 of 248 posts

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#61

As a university student in the UK I find myself reminded of these problems on a very frequent basis. The purpose of universities seems to have shifted from providing academic research and learning to simply being another stage of school, with the sole objective of handing out degrees. One of the metrics that I feel indicates this most strongly is the radical change in hiring at universities in recent years. It's shoc…

The purpose of universities seems to have shifted from providing academic research and learning to simply being another stage of school

There’s no “seems” about it, 50% of school leavers going to university was an explicit policy goal. There’s no way to reconcile an institution of higher learning with one that has to accept anyone that applies

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#62
post #32
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another point is that immigration of qualified worker is the one that is not only accepted, but seen as desirable. Universities are selling something for 45,000 GBP that is available for free or much cheaper in other countries and readily accessible to employers. At some point Universities need to give students their money worth in some form or another.

Ironically UK university education is something of an export industry: there are a lot of people from non-Western countries who come here and pay full fees for the degrees because of their prestige. The government's gradual tightening of immigration policy is making this less viable.

Actually, the high paying customers won't be put off by whatever immigration policy the current government will put in place. It's mostly EU students who will look elsewhere.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#63
post #46
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Define "sexual", define "harassment".

I'm not going to because that's a really fucking stupid argument.

Your tone feels threatening. I hope you don't bring that attitude to the campus...

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#65
post #32
post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another point is that immigration of qualified worker is the one that is not only accepted, but seen as desirable. Universities are selling something for 45,000 GBP that is available for free or much cheaper in other countries and readily accessible to employers. At some point Universities need to give students their money worth in some form or another.

Ironically UK university education is something of an export industry: there are a lot of people from non-Western countries who come here and pay full fees for the degrees because of their prestige. The government's gradual tightening of immigration policy is making this less viable.

Ex-poly degree mills are rapidly devaluing this. It’s only a matter of time before British degrees become an anti-brand in China

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#66

There's also the issue of what has happened now that students have to pay through the nose for courses. They are now customers who expect high grades for their fees. This has certainly changed the dynamic with regard to rigorous marking in some areas

I can't help feeling we would be better off if responsibility for grading was taken away from universities as it is for A levels and GCSEs. There are some problems with that but I suspect they would be outweighed by the benefits.

I've anecdotes from two university lecturers on different courses. They both want some form of external moderation. its what happens for Postgraduate degrees after all.

What they report is horrifying:

* Essay writing skills are lacking, "its at GCSE level"

* Students contesting any form of criticism - they go via the official channels to argue why they should get a good grade. All schools are tied up in multiple tribunals with existing staff. Often its easier just to pass the student.

* In some cases, students are SUING the university for poor grades

* Plagiarism is commonplace. There is an automated plagiarism detection mechanism for electronic submissions - but they are turned off or ignored as it's so rampant. People literally copying from Wikipedia or copy and pasting from papers to make their own work. Wikipedia copying is especially used for definitions, e.g. "Hacker News is a social news website focusing on computer science and entrepreneurship...."

* Students don't see that their education is also their own responsibility, and see it as a purchase. Give me what I pay for.

* Students who don't turn up to classes and seminars demand the same grades as those who do.

* Hundreds of students email lecturers asking for help with their work (much more numbers and frequency than in the past).

They both despair as they see education standards falling, and theres not much they can do. They don't want to be sued by the students, nor do they want to spend all their time in tribunals, they are educators first. They see their own institution as being of very poor quality.

To me - I would look at a league table of education quality for UK universities. There isn't one, you cant compare. Previously a good chance of good education was the research output of a department, or the references of the teachers. But this, as my associates report don't mean anything anymore.

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#67
post #50
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all of West has it this way. US and UK yes, but rest of EU mostly has free college in same or higher quality.

With risk of being deemed survivorship bias, I went to a community college for the first 2 years in the US at a whopping $698 a semester, got my associates in science which transferred to a prominent a state college and counted for my Gen Ed requirements in my Computer Science degree so I was able to jump straight into CS courses. With tuition assistance (everyone qualifies at a certain level, unless you are uber ric…

No matter how cheap you got your degree (which doens't seem to include any university?), who do you think gets the most knowledge out of it:

A: that works 25 hours+ while studying at a school chosen because of its price or B: that study at a school that fits what is best for B and gets money from the school?

Now you might believe the system A uses is fine, but which country do you think will be ahead in 10 or even 50 years?

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#68
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a few issues with that link. Namely that a traffic light system is a huge, huge , HUGE oversimplification of complex issues. While the analysis seems fairly transparent, I don't think many people will actually look into it past the traffic light. I checked out the uni I went to: apparently the students union got an amber light because of "no tolerance to sexual harassment". How exactly does that violate free s…

> guideline that sexual harassment is defined as ‘any unwanted comments which makes someone uncomfortable’ > Both of these appear reasonable to me. How is that reasonable? Essentially it makes sexual harassment entirely subjective. That is ridiculously open to abuse.

I think you're in agreement. I believe your parent post intended "reasonable" to mean in the sense of "reasonable to be considered an impediment to free speech".

Re: In UK universities there is a daily erosion of integrity

#69
post #50
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not all of West has it this way. US and UK yes, but rest of EU mostly has free college in same or higher quality.

With risk of being deemed survivorship bias, I went to a community college for the first 2 years in the US at a whopping $698 a semester, got my associates in science which transferred to a prominent a state college and counted for my Gen Ed requirements in my Computer Science degree so I was able to jump straight into CS courses. With tuition assistance (everyone qualifies at a certain level, unless you are uber ric…

This is clearly the way to go, even private universities let you transfer some credits from community college and everyone with any care for their money should do this. The problem is that it is a bit hidden and young people get guided to do it the expensive way.

It also makes almost zero difference at the end, no one will care if your electives comes from a community college if they care about your degree at all.

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