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Linus Torvalds became US citizen

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Re: Linus Torvalds became US citizen

#101

Post by geebee »

ceci wrote: post #8
expnsv_hdphns wrote: post #7

I'm sick of all these low-wage foreign workers stealing our precious jobs.

Dude, Linus Torvalds is not a low-wage foreign worker. He has done more to provide you with a job than you have done to get yourself a job. Opensource softwares have helped the US economy because lots of today's internet giants like Google benefitted from the use of opensource tools. They are paying taxes and employing Americans, ain't they. Linus Torvalds is synomymous with opensource. Mr America, if i might ask, wh…

The irony here is obvious, but I'm not exactly sure what to infer from it. I've always felt that this one of the big problems with irony in debates that merit serious discussion - they allow someone to mock an opposing point of view, but not really (really?). I suppose that this is part of the purpose of irony as well, to keep people on their toes, and make them think about things in new ways.

Irony can also be used to put a clearly stupid sentence into someone else's mouth, and then claim, when that other person objects, that they just don't get irony.

I'm not sure what the intent is here, but the way I read it, the post may have been intended to mock people who believe that large scale employment-based visa programs (like the H1B) have had some negative effects, displacing some US citizens in the tech job market and deterring other Americans from entering the field altogether. The post suggests that these people would oppose the presence (and naturalization, I guess) of extremely talented foreign nationals or immigrants.

All I can say is that even the most ardent opponents of the H1B visa (such as Norman Matloff) strongly support a substantial number of visas for talented people (I think his ideal figure was 15,000/yr). So aside from the true bozos on various discussion forms, there's pretty much nobody in this debate who would make a statement like this (oh, but nobody did, it's irony. Right? Or is it?)

Clearly, this was an extremely popular post (over 100 karma points), and I suspect that's because it goes to the heart of what has made a lot of people so frustrated with the current H1B/employment immigration system. And if you feel this way, you probably see the post as kind of brilliant, rather than a cheap shot.

To me, this has always been the problem with bringing irony into a debate that is actually pretty complicated and nuanced.

Re: Linus Torvalds became US citizen

#102

Post by demallien »

sasvari wrote: post #22
demallien wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is actually directed at kiuyhjk's reply, not your's philwelch, but... uh, there's no reply link on kiuyhjk's post in my browser (Chrome 6.0.472.51 beta on Fedora 12) Anyway, kiuyhjk - very funny post, very meta

HN policy to avoid flame wars, AFAIK: the reply button is delayed before it appears for a specific post. seems to be around 4 minutes, at least for the deepness of this conversation . so, just be more patient in the future ...

Oh. OK, Thanks for that. I wonder how I managed to miss that little detail! And hey, bonus point, I just discovered that when people continue to downvote you, it still hits your karma, even if the visible post count stops at -4. Two things I've learned about HN today :)

Re: Linus Torvalds became US citizen

#103

Post by thomas11 »

kiuyhjk wrote: post #81
avar wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US (mostly) all speaks the same language and has a much more similar set of laws and a largely homogeneous society. By comparison e.g. Spain and Germany and almost any two countries in the EU you care to name speak different languages, are very different culturally, and have different customs.

Thats the big advantage - imagine having a choice of bread or cheese that actually tastes different! Apart from a few of the more 'third world' european countries (like France) if you speak english and work in high tech it's not a big problem to work in Scandanavia/Germany/Netherlands. The main difficulty is they drive on the wrong side of the road - but as consolation the coffee and women are much better.

What the heck is with the "third world" comment on France? Have you ever been there?

Re: Linus Torvalds became US citizen

#104

Post by kiuyhjk »

mike-cardwell wrote: post #71
scrrr wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but this is also true for the city you are in, the neighborhood and the street. I'm not historian but I suppose throughout history the space that we call home became bigger and bigger as time went by. Perhaps first it was a cave, at some point it was a village, then it was a city and eventually it was a country. I guess what I mean is that eventually countries will go away. And calling them "old-school" was ass…

I don't see that happening ever. Not unless the human condition changes significantly. I currently see it more likely that we will end up with more countries, not less countries. If countries "go away", what do you suggest they would be replaced by?

Ideally the EU will allow more micro-countries.

50 years ago it was difficult to be a city-state, Monaco couldn't have it's own currency, army , foreign embassies.

Now it would be much easier for eg. Scotland/ Bavaria/ Flemish-Belgium to become a country again - they would have a euroepean central bank/currency/etc but could handle everything else locally instead of in a capital city 100mi away that is only the same 'country' because of a battle 500years ago.

Re: Linus Torvalds became US citizen

#105

Post by alinajaf »

philwelch wrote: post #11
ceci wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude, Linus Torvalds is not a low-wage foreign worker. He has done more to provide you with a job than you have done to get yourself a job. Opensource softwares have helped the US economy because lots of today's internet giants like Google benefitted from the use of opensource tools. They are paying taxes and employing Americans, ain't they. Linus Torvalds is synomymous with opensource. Mr America, if i might ask, wh…

Before you ask, you've been downvoted for failing to grasp irony.

That wasn't irony. THIS is irony (i.e. that the person who called out the other guy for not understanding irony, happens to not actually know the difference between irony and sarcasm himself) :P

Re: Linus Torvalds became US citizen

#106

Post by cookiecaper »

scrrr wrote: post #38

Countries are such an old-school concept somehow. EDIT: Downvotes? Come on. Especially today, especially in our world of modern technology, physical location is less important than ever before. Where's the sci-fi novel where they abolished countries after they found out we all live on a tiny planet orbiting one of a billion stars?

Government should be as local as possible because it gives the most power to individuals to govern themselves. In the US, theoretically, the feds are not really supposed to be able to do much, though obviously that's not how things have worked out.

Re: Linus Torvalds became US citizen

#107

Post by lkozma »

mike-cardwell wrote: post #91
scrrr wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things like the European Union. It's not always pretty but it works. Perhaps after that it will be planets (if you like Futurama), or religions, philosophies or even brands. :) Who knows.

The EU isn't a country though, and it will never be one; different cultures have different values and often don't want to live under the same set of laws. Personally, I think this is a good thing. If you're oppressed under one countries set of laws at least you always have the option of leaving.

But he was arguing against countries not against cultures. Borders of countries don't always overlap with linguistic, cultural, other borders.

Re: Linus Torvalds became US citizen

#108

Post by ciupicri »

duke_sam wrote: post #36
jan_g wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is generally true for all developed countries.

Except Ireland. We're generally very good at getting the hell out of dodge when the government manages to do something horrible to the economy.

I was under the impression that Ireland is/was the Celtic tiger (of Europe).

Re: Linus Torvalds became US citizen

#109

Post by jerf »

kiuyhjk wrote: post #14
philwelch wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before you ask, you've been downvoted for failing to grasp irony.

One more thing to consider for any other europeans thinking of moving to America: 1, they don't understand irony 2, they carry guns

Ah, I think I see the problem. We call that "sarcasm". Quite a lot of us get that just fine, though of course the internet can always turn up at least one person who doesn't. "Irony" is reserved for events that are only ironic in the light of other events; death by drowning isn't "ironic" until it happens to a swimming instructor, for instance. You can't really say something ironic, it has to happen. (And if you say something ironic it is a description of a thing that happened.)

Re: Linus Torvalds became US citizen

#110

Post by kiuyhjk »

kiuyhjk wrote: post #81
avar wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US (mostly) all speaks the same language and has a much more similar set of laws and a largely homogeneous society. By comparison e.g. Spain and Germany and almost any two countries in the EU you care to name speak different languages, are very different culturally, and have different customs.

Thats the big advantage - imagine having a choice of bread or cheese that actually tastes different! Apart from a few of the more 'third world' european countries (like France) if you speak english and work in high tech it's not a big problem to work in Scandanavia/Germany/Netherlands. The main difficulty is they drive on the wrong side of the road - but as consolation the coffee and women are much better.

Sorry - can't link to the replies.

It was 'irony' - France is notorious for obeying only those EU laws which benefit it. In particular there are lots of unofficial barriers to other EU individuals/companies working in France - even though they are legally allowed to. Is't common for various levels of government to delay required licencing for years.

It's an issue even with international collaborations - the European Space agency is in the Netherlands and CERN is officially HQed in Switzerland - there was a lot of concern over ITER before it was built in France, the French 'promised' to play nicely with people working there.

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