Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The Many Ways Google Harvests Data

wsj.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

151–160 of 189 posts

Re: The Many Ways Google Harvests Data

#151

Post by downandout »

russdpale wrote: post #116
downandout wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You do know that most big stores use automated video analysis nowadays to optimize inventory placement, analyze in-store traffic flow, detect shoplifting, detect slip and falls, etc right? Some have begun using license plate readers at parking lot entrances. Oh and...they are completely within their rights to do it.....being a private business and all. The point is, don't come on my property - physical or virtual - u…

Just because its on your property does give you carte blanche to do anything you want to me. I dont see how this is a reasonable argument. You cant tracke in your bathroom or changing stalls. You cant listen to my phone calls or ask me intimate personal details about where I have been without explicitly asking me.

Are you arguing that Facebook is watching you in your bathroom or listening to phone calls? To my knowledge, nobody in the physical or virtual world is doing either of these things.

Re: The Many Ways Google Harvests Data

#152

Post by downandout »

Intermernet wrote: post #150
downandout wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As for your argument that Facebook usage has dropped as a result of the recent privacy outrage, it has not - at least according to Mark Zuckerberg as of April 10, 2018 [1]. Remember that the outrage of journalists - driven by a desire for clicks - is not the same as public outrage. Other factors (such as people spending more time on Instagram, or life in general) may have contributed to a decline in engagement prior…

>I like them being highly targeted ... Since these advertisers aren't given any personally identifiable data by the ad networks The fact that the ads are highly targeted, and the fact that they are used by many companies, means that you are probably personally identifiable by correlation. They don't need your name. They probably have your locale (to a high degree of precision), your shopping habits, your sexual prefe…

And what exactly is wrong with that? So some marketers know that someone in the world likes to do X, lives in a certain place, likes to buy things, etc. It's not tied to your specific identity - it's just a collection of data. There's nothing inherently wrong with that.

Re: The Many Ways Google Harvests Data

#153

Post by JangoSteve »

downandout wrote: post #135
dforrestwilson wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think either of these analogies is accurate? It's more like Home Depot slapping a GPS tracker on my person, which I am take with me when I leave the store, isn't it?

Does HomeDepot.com get to see where else you go on the Internet because they have tracking code on their site? No, they do not. They cannot obtain this data from the major tracking vendors (Facebook, Google etc.) either. Granted, the vendors themselves can often see cross-site behavior, but the individual sites using these trackers cannot and aren't given access to this information.

I agree with the other comments that the analogies kind of hide the ball on the real issues here. But in this case, I think it's more like Home Depot putting up security cameras that send all the footage of you to the camera manufacturer. In turn, that camera manufacturer runs facial recognition to automatically combine your Home Depot activity with your activity from all other business that use their cameras (which is 1/2 to 3/4 of the business you visit [1]), including the pharmacy, gas station, grocery store, bank, etc. Oh, and the information at the registers integrates with the cameras as well. And then the camera manufacturer sells your aggregate, combined data to advertisers who then set up shop at kiosks in the stores (the kiosks are owned by the camera manufacturer by the way), so that they can sell you stuff while you're there. And if the kiosk in Home Depot can't get you to buy something, they'll just get the kiosk at the bank to continue where they left off.

[1] https://trends.builtwith.com/analytics/Google-Analytics

Re: The Many Ways Google Harvests Data

#155

Post by JangoSteve »

delroth wrote: post #86
dualboot wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just what they collect with a single service. It's the amount of clarity that comes from a linkage with their other collected data sets.

On that same web page: > We don't correlate or combine information from our temporary or permanent logs with any personal information that you have provided Google for other services. Of course, all of that is meaningless if you want to think that Google is lying in its privacy policies. (Disclaimer: I work at Google, but not on 8888).

To be fair, that's also what they said for the other services before they changed their minds.

Re: The Many Ways Google Harvests Data

#156

Post by thaumaturgy »

downandout wrote: post #152
Intermernet wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I like them being highly targeted ... Since these advertisers aren't given any personally identifiable data by the ad networks The fact that the ads are highly targeted, and the fact that they are used by many companies, means that you are probably personally identifiable by correlation. They don't need your name. They probably have your locale (to a high degree of precision), your shopping habits, your sexual prefe…

And what exactly is wrong with that? So some marketers know that someone in the world likes to do X, lives in a certain place, likes to buy things, etc. It's not tied to your specific identity - it's just a collection of data. There's nothing inherently wrong with that.

In the first place, your repeated assertion that you are anonymous in the data is wrong. A combination of zip code, date of birth, and gender will uniquely identify 87% of the people in the country [1], and I assure you advertisers have far more detailed information than that. In some cases, they have your DNA. [2]

Secondly, that information is used to influence you. Cambridge Analytica still proudly proclaims, on their home page, that they "[use] data to change audience behavior." Ads on Facebook are being used by different groups to inflame political tensions [3]. The tracking widgets used on nearly every site you visit now means that some company, somewhere, knows everything you're interested in. They are in the business of using that information against you, to their benefit, whether it's in crafting sensational stories with clickbait headlines to get more of your attention, or selling you products you don't need by preying on your insecurities, or just trading it for money to other companies who will use it in new and creative ways -- like CA, who specialize in tilting voting behavior. [4]

Thirdly, you're counting on advertising firms having perfect security and never accidentally giving your information away to people who shouldn't have it. Advertising companies just don't have good history when it comes to data security [5] [6] [7].

People seem happy to ignore the ramifications of all of this, because it's not like they're feeling physical pain or discomfort or noticing any other immediate negative effect when more tracking data is collected or they see another ad. But this is a form of psychological warfare, and at least some of this stuff is designed to corrupt your thinking, to get more of your attention and change your opinions about things and convince you that it's all very harmless.

We've strayed away from tracking data and into advertising, but they are two sides of the same coin.

[1]: http://latanyasweeney.org/work/identifiability.html

[2]: https://freedom-to-tinker.com/2015/09/07/ancestry-com-can-us...

[3]: https://www.reuters.com/article/us-facebook-ads/majority-of-...

[4]: http://money.cnn.com/2018/03/20/technology/what-is-cambridge...

[5]: https://www.engadget.com/2016/01/08/you-say-advertising-i-sa...

[6]: https://pagefair.com/blog/2015/halloween-security-breach/

[7]: https://entertainment.slashdot.org/story/16/10/09/208249/a-s...

Re: The Many Ways Google Harvests Data

#157

Post by hyperdimension »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #114
downandout wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you suggesting that reading the newspaper at home grants the publisher the right to peer in through my window? No, nor did I even intimate that. That's your property, not mine. That suggestion is as ridiculous as the one I was trying to refute. But when you enter my property - be it virtual or phyiscal - expect to be observed using whatever technologies and vendors I want that are legal (with a few obvious legal…

People that want to move this discussion forward need to stop using analogies for things in the physical world, because the interactions between a website and a browser aren't similar enough to anything physical. Every single time someone resorts to analogy in one of these threads, it immediately and permanently devolves into an argument over the details of the analogy. Browsers run code delivered by websites. It's g…

> need to stop using analogies for things in the physical world

That sounds like HN to me. Nothing likes analogies like HN likes analogies.

Put it this way--analogies are like cars. When they're good, they're great, but when they're bad, they're really bad.

Re: The Many Ways Google Harvests Data

#158

Post by downandout »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #156
downandout wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And what exactly is wrong with that? So some marketers know that someone in the world likes to do X, lives in a certain place, likes to buy things, etc. It's not tied to your specific identity - it's just a collection of data. There's nothing inherently wrong with that.

In the first place, your repeated assertion that you are anonymous in the data is wrong. A combination of zip code, date of birth, and gender will uniquely identify 87% of the people in the country [1], and I assure you advertisers have far more detailed information than that. In some cases, they have your DNA. [2] Secondly, that information is used to influence you. Cambridge Analytica still proudly proclaims, on th…

You obviously feel very passionate about this subject, so there is no point in attempting to convincing you to change your opinion, other than to reiterate that it is not a commonly held opinion.

I did want to respond directly to one of your points that is dead wrong. With regard to this statement:

>Secondly, that information is used to influence you. Cambridge Analytica still proudly proclaims, on their home page, that they "[use] data to change audience behavior." Ads on Facebook are being used by different groups to inflame political tensions

There has been no scientific evidence that CA, the Russians, or anyone else was actually successful in their efforts to use Facebook to influence the election or "inflate political tensions". In fact, CA's own customers say that it didn't work [1]. This whole thing was a manufactured controversy.

[1] http://www.businessinsider.com/cambridge-analytica-facebook-...

Re: The Many Ways Google Harvests Data

#159

Post by kyrra »

rhizome wrote: post #103
delroth wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On that same web page: > We don't correlate or combine information from our temporary or permanent logs with any personal information that you have provided Google for other services. Of course, all of that is meaningless if you want to think that Google is lying in its privacy policies. (Disclaimer: I work at Google, but not on 8888).

We don't correlate or combine information from our temporary or permanent logs with any personal information I'd say that depends on what definition of "personal" they're using.

https://policies.google.com/privacy/key-terms#toc-terms-pers...

"Personal information

This is information which you provide to us which personally identifies you, such as your name, email address or billing information, or other data which can be reasonably linked to such information by Google, such as information we associate with your Google account."

Re: The Many Ways Google Harvests Data

#160

Post by lazybreather »

lern_too_spel wrote: post #22
lucideer wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> controls that I trust. I think this trust might be misplaced. > Example: Location history. It is turned off by default. Displaying your location history to you is turned off by default. Google's own recording of your location, for their purposes, cannot be turned off.

> Google's own recording of your location, for their purposes, cannot be turned off. Citation needed. Android even lets you turn off AGPS, which collects anonymous location data to update itself. As far as I know, this is not even possible on iOS.

You can just go to active services and check for yourself. Of course it is possible to end the google location service. It will be back in a few seconds. In case you try too hard random pop ups start on your home screen effectively making the phone unusable. Google's biggest trick is that it made people feel like everything is in their hands (including and especially developers which is really sad).
Post reply on HN